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While I haven't watched DW's S5 past the first couple of episodes, I've been glancing at spoilers from you all.

First off, I'm so glad that no one major got killed off and the thing didn't end in misery. That's something that would have made me far less interested. As much as I love RTD's writing, I was sick to death of his non-stop angst on DW. (It was like he started out doing penance for much of S2 and then got addicted to that angst rush. :D)
I adore the idea of a couple on the TARDIS! I'm sure I've mentioned this before - it's the one thing we really haven't seen. Ian and Barbara were sort of a couple. Sort of. And Mickey and Rose were pretty much done by the time he came along. It's actually made me a lot more interested in S5 and S6 now.
I've read several people who said they were warming up to River, which is good. I'm hoping I'll be the same way. Unfortunately her default character mode really grated on me in S4. She was basically Jack Harkness, but without the cheese factor (or anything else) to make her endearing. The only thing I still find a bit strange is that Moffat feels the need to have an omniscient presence within the narrative. It's an odd choice and from what I've seen, even people who love the character hate that whole "spoilers!" aspect of her. (Oh, and if you're hoping to see me getting all butthurt D/R shipper about them being married (or whatever they are), you'll be disappointed. I think their relationship is fucked up beyond all recognition and would be horrible for an actual marriage, but... *shrugs* The Doctor's been married before, and even apparently married QE for kicks and giggles. So whatever.)
Sounds like there were some real gems in S5, so I'm looking forward to that, although the general consensus seems to be that it just didn't have the depth of characterization that it did before. That's disappointing, but not unexpected. From eps he's done before, Moffat generally sacrifices character for plot. But it sounds like it wasn't horrible, so thumbs up.
Am amused that apparently Moffat's been begging RTD to write for DW again. So much for fannish conspiracy theories about them hating each other. :D (Speaking of which, OMG HOW AWESOME WILL TORCHWOOD BE??)

Am amused that apparently Moffat's been begging RTD to write for DW again. So much for fannish conspiracy theories about them hating each other.

Huh? I hadn't heard that! It would be completely cool to have RTD do an episode or two! I've been wishing that we had a Moffat & RTD partnership where we had less angst and more characterization. Why can't we have both?

It would be the best of both worlds, wouldn't it?

Here's the article I saw:

http://www.digitalspy.com/cult/s7/doctor-who/news/a232663/moffat-asked-russell-t-davies-to-return.html

"Am amused that apparently Moffat's been begging RTD to write for DW again. "

THAT. SO MUCH. ;D

I'm actually glad to know that there doesn't seem to be the rifts that were speculated.

I think the idea of Mr and Mrs Amy Pond on the TARDIS is pretty great, and made me unexpectedly excited for s6 in a way that I, um, really wasn't when I learned Karen would be staying around. (Sorry Karen. I love you. But Amy...) Granted that means we get to experience Moffat writing a marriage, which could be... not awesome... but whatever right now I am stuck in the "OMG CUTE" mode. And I definitely enjoyed the Amy/Rory/Doctor(/River) dynamic more than just the Amy/Doctor dynamic, which is a real rarity for me. Usually I get super territorial when another person gets invited along. I think it's a result of me not being particularly invested in the Amy/Doctor dynamic, which is a shame, but ...oh well.

I think s5 as a whole was a lot of fun, but not particularly groundbreaking or as gripping as the previous seasons. It really worked for a lot of people, though, so maybe it will really work for you in the same way. My biggest gripe is that I don't feel Amy Pond ever lived up to the potential given to the character in Eleventh Hour, but Rory is A+ and yes, I found that River became much more likable, even if her overall plotline is still irritating.

Granted that means we get to experience Moffat writing a marriage, which could be... not awesome...

Right. Didn't think about that. :D

And I definitely enjoyed the Amy/Rory/Doctor(/River) dynamic more than just the Amy/Doctor dynamic, which is a real rarity for me. Usually I get super territorial when another person gets invited along. I think it's a result of me not being particularly invested in the Amy/Doctor dynamic, which is a shame, but ...oh well.

Well, from what little I did see, they really didn't have the same vibe as, say, the Doctor and Donna. No best friends forever and forever and forever thing going on. Which isn't to belittle Amy's "status," just that it makes it easier for others to join the ride.

I found that River became much more likable, even if her overall plotline is still irritating.

I have the feeling it'll be a lot like Martha for me. Once she shed that horrible unrequited love thing, I really fell for her. Unfortunately though, doesn't sound like River will ever outgrow her plotline.

I didn't get the BFF vibe from them either, but the issue I had was that I felt the show WANTED me to feel that vibe, and I just didn't. Eleven I felt was alwys very paternal towards her, and that's sort of how the actors describe it so A+ there, but it always felt sort of like... "okay, I KNOW they're close because the show TELLS me they are, but I don't see it." Yeah. IDK.

I liked River in the finale a lot, and I think it's because it's the earliest we see her in her timeline, and she only has one moment of "I KNOW SOMETHING YOU DON'T KNOW" at the very end, and the rest of the time she's sort of on even-level with the rest of the players.

I was unexpectedly fond of Amy/Rory though. In a different way than I am fond of Doctor/Rose, but it was still really cute.

That's another thing that I picked up from my reading this past series - people commented on that whole telling vs. showing thing. I've seen that in the eps SM has done before, so that doesn't surprise me.

Glad they've toned down that aspect of River. Maybe things will even start to reverse. Maybe.

And they look cute. :D

Granted that means we get to experience Moffat writing a marriage, which could be... not awesome...

D:

That is a terrifying thought. Ugh. From the way he seems to be headed though, it seems more like Amy is going to be an ass to Rory and it's supposed to be funny. But if the genders were switched people would find it unhealthy and maybe even abusive. MOFFAT, WHY DO YOU FAIL AT WRITING RELATIONSHIPS SO HARD?

I've read several people who said they were warming up to River, which is good.

I've discovered the farther back in her timeline we see River, the more I can tolerate her, because she's *less* omniscient. She still knows things the Doctor doesn't, but now he knows things she doesn't too. The thing I absolutely despised about her (aside from the fact that WHY DIDN'T THEY JUST USE BENNY?) was that she was holding all the cards in the relationship. I hate relationships where one party has all the power. :-P And that particular feeling was just aggravated by the way she was always rubbing her knowledge in his face.

although the general consensus seems to be that it just didn't have the depth of characterization that it did before.

I guess that must depend on what people mean by depth of characterization. I didn't feel any lack, but admittedly I wasn't as big of a fan of RTD's style to begin with. Amy's family didn't play a large role, and yeah, we skipped large chunks of her story with the timey-wimeyness. But Amy still definitely grew and changed from "The Eleventh Hour" to "The Big Bang": particularly in her relationship with Rory, but not just there. She seemed a lot less afraid of life and a lot more sure of what she wanted in general by the end. :-) Not to mention I think her mixed feelings about the Doctor (at the beginning, as much as she adores him, I think she's still mad at him too for *not* coming back sooner) got un-mixed.

And with Eleven...maybe it's just me, but it felt like the whole season, not just the pilot, was him coming into his own and figuring out who he was in this regeneration. A lot of the "Ten-ish" characteristics people complained about him having at the beginning of the season sort of disappeared one by one and I'm betting most of them won't appear in series 6 at all. (And on a related but somewhat opposite note, for someone who supposedly wasn't a fan before he got the role, Matt Smith is absolutely brilliant at subtly throwing mannerisms of previous Doctors into his performance. It took me seeing "The Big Bang" twice to realize he'd given River a very Sevenish bop on the nose. :-) )

Am amused that apparently Moffat's been begging RTD to write for DW again. So much for fannish conspiracy theories about them hating each other. :D

*snort* I don't think Moffat would've A) written as many episodes during RTD's era as he did, or B) been chosen as his successor if they'd hated each other. Maybe people have assumed that because Moffat has a very different vision of the show, and has as a result been getting away from some of the things RTD did with it, but I don't think that means anything other than he has a different vision and this is his chance to share it. I think the things he *hasn't* changed from the RTD era are more telling.

(Speaking of which, OMG HOW AWESOME WILL TORCHWOOD BE??)

Ugh. To be perfectly honest, I'm dreading it and not at all sure I'll even watch. An American/international setting just seems wrong (what is this, Mission: Impossible in space? :-P) and I'm furious that they're bringing Gwen back (even though I'm sure it's nice for Eve Myles to stay employed *g*). She was one of the ONLY characters who got something vaguely resembling a happy ending out of CoE: bring her back and she's sure to lose Rhys, the baby or both and that pisses me off. :-(

*sigh* How about you watch and I read your spoilers to decide if I want to? ;-)

Re River: Their whole relationship is squicky for me, mainly because of the timeline thing. And how she acted towards him in S4 was...not love. It was a caricature of love. Which...whatever. The world is full of messed up relationships - doesn't mean I have to enjoy watching one.

Re characterization: the biggest complaint I've seen is that they just don't get where the characters are coming from. They do things where their motivations or reasonings behind what they do are murky at best.

Re Moffat era: Yeah, I think it's telling what hasn't changed as well. I think some were expecting things to revert back to Classic Who. :D

Re Torchwood: As much as I complained about RTD's angst-fest in DW, I really did love the utter darkness of Children of Earth. That worked for me, while the DW angst was turning me off. If he can write a series like that, I'm totally on board.

I'll admit that the Gwen thing is a bit surprising to me. I still think that it's a bit irresponsible to work for Torchwood when you have a family (that goes for men too), but I guess we'll see what happens.

Edited 2010-06-28 18:13 (UTC)

Re River: Their whole relationship is squicky for me, mainly because of the timeline thing.

Heh. Notice I said tolerate, not warm up to or like. ;-)

And how she acted towards him in S4 was...not love. It was a caricature of love. Which...whatever. The world is full of messed up relationships - doesn't mean I have to enjoy watching one.

It's the power thing again, IMO: There may be *one* point in there relationship where they meet on even terms, where they both know each other exactly as well as the other, but 99% of the time one or the other of them is going to be WAY ahead of the other. And I have a feeling once it gets to the other end of the spectrum--with the Doctor being the one holding all the cards--I'm going to wind up despising HIM when ever she's around, and I do NOT look forward to that. :-P

Re characterization: the biggest complaint I've seen is that they just don't get where the characters are coming from. They do things where their motivations or reasonings behind what they do are murky at best.

Really? Huh. It seemed clear enough to me. Maybe I've inferred things that weren't there, but if so I never noticed I was doing it. *grin* Well, except for River: she is still a rather galling mystery. :-P

Re Moffat era: Yeah, I think it's telling what hasn't changed as well. I think some were expecting things to revert back to Classic Who. :D

I think in some ways the tone has--this season was much lighter over all than most of RTD's era, although it had its moments of angst--but the Doctor's recent history was kept mostly intact, and where it wasn't it was a big, scary deal that things had changed/were forgotten.

Re Torchwood: As much as I complained about RTD's angst-fest in DW, I really did love the utter darkness of Children of Earth. That worked for me, while the DW angst was turning me off. If he can write a series like that, I'm totally on board.

I have a very weird relationship with CoE. On the one hand, there was some brilliant storytelling. On the other, it felt like Davies sat down and asked himself, "Let's see, how can we piss off the most fans possible in a week?" I don't even like Ianto and I still think his death was a stupid move. So...I don't know. If they weren't bringing Gwen back, I might be more inclined to give it a chance, but I just don't trust Torchwood not to bring her back ONLY so they can destroy that beautiful little family they gave her. :-(

I'll admit that the Gwen thing is a bit surprising to me. I still think that it's a bit irresponsible to work for Torchwood when you have a family (that goes for men too), but I guess we'll see what happens.

They'd better have a darn good reason for it, that's all I'll say. And by "good" I mean something where Rhys and/or the baby (or maybe someone else in her family) will die if she DOESN'T get back into action. I think anything less than that would make me want to throw things. :-o

On the other, it felt like Davies sat down and asked himself, "Let's see, how can we piss off the most fans possible in a week?"

XD Almost seems like it, doesn't it? To me the whole thing was some hard-core dark sci-fi. Even BSG wishes it was that dark. I think I loved it because it went so far, and that's not really like me. I have no idea.

Sounds like there were some real gems in S5, so I'm looking forward to that, although the general consensus seems to be that it just didn't have the depth of characterization that it did before.

Yeah, I thought that Amy's characterization was piss poor. She was just kind of a blank slate with certain adjectives like "feisty" written on it. There wasn't anything that made her feel like a real person. I actually think that Rory is the only character that was given any sort of development and thus I love him. Eleven definitely grew on me, but I don't think that there was a lot of development for him. It was more like I was able to project development on him based on my knowledge of Nine and Ten, if that makes sense. But there were a few episodes that I really enjoyed (Amy's Choice, Vincent and the Doctor, The Lodger).

I've read similar reactions from others. Well, maybe now that Rory and Amy are established, they'll focus more on the Doctor next series.

Series 5 was enjoyable in a different way that the Tennant era or the McCoy era or the Troughton era was enjoyable. Each one has a different appeal. I wouldn't want Eleven's Doctor to be the same as Tennant's doctor.

And Rory is my favorite character from this series!

And I did like River a bit more than before...

Yeah, they each have their own aspects. :)

I've heard that lots of people loved Rory - he seems kind of like a loveable underdog.

He was very enjoyable. And the Tradis does work better when there are multiple companions - especially if they are a couple. :)

The other one I remember well was Ben and Polly.

Aww, Ben and Polly! I just watched one with them not too long ago.

Actually I think the one big way I can give the show props this season is that Rory didn't stay "lovable underdog" for very long. I was expecting it to be a constant stream of gags a la Vampires of Venice where the psychic paper (that Amy is holding, I believe) refers to Rory as Amy's eunuch. I was like, "OH HALE NAW" at that, but actually, Rory gets to be pretty competent and awesome and the Doctor quickly grows to respect him.

Would agree with this - loved how Rory's character developed (although am not sure if the one we've been left with is the 'altered' one - don't want to spoil) and I'm looking forward to seeing where he goes.

That's good. Those kind of jokes might be funny at first, but it gets old REALLY fast.

although the general consensus seems to be that it just didn't have the depth of characterization that it did before

This consensus baffles me utterly.

It all worked for you, I take it? :)

It largely did, yes.

Who is it that the fandom is saying was not developed?

I've seen general comments about Amy and Eleven. Can't remember any about Rory though.

I actually think Rory was pretty well-developed. Maybe even better so than Amy.

Amy is...somewhere between Martha and Donna on the scale of development, I think. (Donna being well-developed, Martha being not so much.) She definitely changed and grew over the course of the season, but I think it was kind of subtle in places. And I think that's part of the character--she is stubborn and hard-headed and brassy and closed off, so...yeah...you're not going to see a whole lot of sweeping change. What interests me is what will happen to her next season--given the changes that came about in the finale. Some fundamental aspects of her life were re-written and one would hope that would have an effect. (Yeah, that was vague--trying to avoid spoilers.)

It...puzzles me that people think the Doctor is not developed. He's the same man he was last season, and the one before that, and the one before that and...you get the picture. I don't look at him as a new character every time he re-generates, ergo I do not think he needs to "develop" any more so than a real person would change over time and experience.

I kind of love Eleven, actually. And we both know how deeply dubious I was about them hiring an eight-year-old to play a Timelord. I think that, taken in the context of Nine and Ten, he *has* changed over the past five seasons. He has the gravitas and brimstone of Nine and some of the whimsy of Ten (without, IMO, the frenetic bits) and has reconciled them in a balanced sort of way.

Also, he is effortlessly dorky and that just warms my cockles.

I think that the biggest thing about Eleven (just generalizing from snips and pieces I've read) is that there wasn't anything new. I know that the Doctor is the Doctor is the Doctor, but some felt that his characterization in S5 rested on the laurels of past series. And since it was both a new actor and a new show runner, they expected something new.

Completely OT but have you ever seen 'Casanova'? Written by RTD, starring DT.

You know, I tried watching it but got freaked out after only about 5 minutes when he sounded way too much like the Doctor. :D

Which I don't think makes it worse necessarily - I think it means that Moffat writes a show that appeals to be slightly less on a fannish level but is still enjoyable.

This has come to be my general feeling about Show now. I still enjoy it and I do genuinely look forward to seeing each new episode, and I've got an Eleven/River fic idea I'm playing around with. But it's not this -- compulsive need to write down EVERY SINGLE THOUGHT IN MY HEAD that it was before. Then again, I've always felt that way about Moffat's writing. I find myself admiring him greatly as a technician -- he can, and does, write plots that are well-crafted, and enjoyable. But it's lacking a certain je ne sais quoi that feeds my addiction. I know a lot of people are missing that, but I'm finding it a touch of a relief, not having my sanity so closely linked to fictional characters' welfare...

I know a lot of people are missing that, but I'm finding it a touch of a relief, not having my sanity so closely linked to fictional characters' welfare...

Actually, that would be a really good thing for me with DW. XD

But it's not this -- compulsive need to write down EVERY SINGLE THOUGHT IN MY HEAD that it was before

YES, that sums it up completely. Moffat's Who is fun, but I'm not really moved either way by it - whereas RTD's Who I often squeed, cried, and raged all in the same episode.

Personally I miss having something to be insanely fannish about (not... entirely sure why XD), but that doesn't mean that RTD's Who was better or worse. It just emphasized different things.

S5 was definitely a lot of fun and I'm glad for Amy/Roy and I think Matt Smith did a great job considering the shoes he had to fill. But... but... I dunno, I just wasn't *feeling* it like RTD's series. Which I don't think makes it worse necessarily - I think it means that Moffat writes a show that appeals to be slightly less on a fannish level but is still enjoyable.

I've seen more comments like that - it's thoroughly enjoyable, but not on a rabid fangirl/boy level.

And yeah River's plotline is still annoying but less so than in the Library episodes. Plus Moffat hasn't really jumped into OMG TRUE LOVE!!! territory yet (though it could still go that way, I guess?) which kind of helps.

That's good to know. Also, I'm pretty sure the entire plot of the Library episodes did not endear me to River. My brain was too busy dribbling out my ears.

I've actually been pretty pleased with Season 5 what with Matt Smith and Amy. She's a riot, and Matt Smith has really been growing on.

From eps he's done before, Moffat generally sacrifices character for plot. But it sounds like it wasn't horrible, so thumbs up.
This is interesting to me because I feel like he's done several episodes that are more aimed at character definition, and I feel like there's a lot of character development happening. As well as Eleven settling into himself. There's a lot of stuff that he does that doesn't quite seem in-tune with the Doctor that I've known up to this point. So I think he's done a pretty good job with that part of it so far. Granted, those episodes haven't been my favourite, but they've been pretty good for explaining characters. And towards the end of the season, Moffat did a pretty bang-up job tying EVERYTHING together. It's been pretty awesome. I was not disappointed in the slightest. :)

River Song. I kind of still really hate her guts. The spoiler thing is annoying, and I can't place her which is probably part of the reason that I can't stand her. She just knows everything (but not really--it's like big picture stuff, but not details), and I find that omniscient presence interesting as well.
I really want to know what she is to him. 'Cause I don't think they're married. I think she loves him, and he could love her, but I don't see the emotion from him. Yet. And I think they would be really screwed up together, kind of like you said. Partially because they're so out of sync in time. *shrug* Whatever. We'll all just have to deal, because she's not going to go away anytime soon.

And I do have to say that I LOVE the fact that there is a couple on board the TARDIS. :) I saw some of Ian and Barbara, and I feel like it just lightens things up so much because then there's no awkward romance tenseness between people. (Specifically the Doctor and companion. It did make thing angsty, though I, of course, think Rose and Ten are the best thing ever... lol) So yeah. That makes me happy. And Rory's so much more confident in himself and what-not, having had SO much life experience. It'll be great! I'm super excited to see what happens. Back to the old Who excitement.

So I guess I can only leave you with good things about Season 5. I would recommend it. :) Enjoy!

Re characters: that sounds encouraging!

Re River: One thing that gets me is the traveling apart thing. I'd never be able to buy the "married" thing with that going on. (Watch, it'll probably be something like "you two must marry or the universe will be destroyed!" - some kind of shag-or-die plot. :D)

Re couples: I really am looking forward to that aspect!

Yeah. I don't see how they can be feasibly married. And you're probably right... lol, shag-or-die.
Amy and Rory are going to be brilliant I think! They're really confident in themselves and the Doctor needs that in his companions! :)

It...wasn't horrible, but I am butthurt over the characterization/plot trade-off.

As for #E6, WHAT? I thought Moffat was that kid who destroyed his brother's action figures because he was all jealous and shit. Crap, now how do I explain ~~tGitF~~ ~~the library episodes~~ every freakin' episode he's written prior to s5?

Maybe...he's been replaced by an alien! Yeah!

He could be phoning it in! I mean literally, mind you. I saw a guy who looked like him and was so tempted to go "WHYYYYYY????" :D

BWAH!

Poor guy, I bet he wondered why I was looking at him for so long. lol

I think that having a married couple on the Tardis for the first time since season 1, even if Amy still seems to have an awfully large crush on the Doctor, will make things more interesting.

I have found that River has grown on me as a character, and she isn't always so omniscient. In the season finale she actually was from earlier in her timeline, so didn't even know anything about what happened mid way through the season, as it hadn't happened in her life yet. So that did make a difference. And while it's always been speculated that she might have married to the Doctor, I'm actually thinking that's a very different relationship than what people suspect - despite the fact that Moffat seems to have been deliberately throwing the marriage thing in our faces.

I do like Rory as a character this season, though there were quite a few decent characters this season including Queen Elizabeth, who seems destined to appear again.

Anyway, hopefully you'll get to watch the whole series at some point, but the double episodes in the middle and the end of the season were probably my favourites.

I am planning on watching sometime soon. Now that I know it doesn't end in crushing angst, I've warmed up to it more. Plus the thing about the couple on the TARDIS. :)

It could well be that the married thing isn't what we think. In fact, it most likely isn't what we think. Not unless they got a divorce and River's lawyer couldn't get the TARDIS in the settlement.

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