mrv3000 | BSG 2x10

Interesting comment. In a way, I agree totally, but in another I don't. I think leadership begins from the top down and a group takes it's personality from the leader. In this case, being an ass (black) is rewarded, being compassionate (and grey) is not. The black hats get promoted, the grey get shot.

I find the whole thing very indicative of what happens when a person has absolute power. It corrupts. This didn't happen on Galactica because of what Adama himself said. The President saved them.

Yeah, I could see that to an extent of the people the Admiral surrounded herself with, but I desperately missing any kind of human face to these people. I think it was beyond an internal story thing, but an external one - they just didn't bother giving these people any depth.

Yes, it's usually shades of gray. But I've seen in my life how one person can control a group of people and actually turn them into idiotic robots. In a life and death scenario like BSG this would be a thousandfold. With a ruthless captain, she would instill that attitude into her whole crew.

But I think the Pegasus is there for more than just giving us someone to hate. It could be viewed as a head-to-head confrontation between Adama's style (overlooking certain aspects because of the situation and Cain's style (the crushing style of a military dictatorship.

Okay, it's almost like good vs. evil and I would have preferred to have it build over more than one episode. But looking at a few comments from Cain makes me pause. She's correct in that Galactica's military atmosphere has degenerated into a I'll do whatever I want sort of thing. She's wrong in her actions to correct it.

And getting back to that Shades of Gray thing, well some people just aren't that hard to categorize. Sometimes a person just steps right up into the I hate you category.

Yes, it's usually shades of gray. But I've seen in my life how one person can control a group of people and actually turn them into idiotic robots. In a life and death scenario like BSG this would be a thousandfold. With a ruthless captain, she would instill that attitude into her whole crew.

Yeah, I guess I could see that. I'm still missing something though. Maybe I'm way into Lost right now where everything's "character, character, character with a side of character." And to suddenly see obvious black hats in this grey world is jolting.

But I think the Pegasus is there for more than just giving us someone to hate. It could be viewed as a head-to-head confrontation between Adama's style (overlooking certain aspects because of the situation and Cain's style (the crushing style of a military dictatorship.

That will be a fascinating story. (But I think it would have been even better if we weren't so obviously meant to hate Cain. *g*)

Okay, it's almost like good vs. evil and I would have preferred to have it build over more than one episode. But looking at a few comments from Cain makes me pause. She's correct in that Galactica's military atmosphere has degenerated into a I'll do whatever I want sort of thing. She's wrong in her actions to correct it.

Yeah, maybe I would have been better with it if the conflict was allowed to build over several episodes. They did a pretty quick 180.

And getting back to that Shades of Gray thing, well some people just aren't that hard to categorize. Sometimes a person just steps right up into the I hate you category.

Heh heh. True. But all of them?

Yeah, Lost really is character, character, and more character. BSG is character-driven also but with a more focused plot.

They really did need a third part to confront Adama and Roslin. They had settled down into their roles and thought that was the end.

And we all know this will end the first episode in January. It's not like that tension that can go on for many, many episodes. This battle is for real.

I don't think that every person on Pegasus would be worthy of our hate. It's just the ones who aren't arrogant, sadistic bastards aren't really going to poke their heads up and say, Here I am.... I think a few will emerge and find their way to Galactica along with some of the arrogant, sadistic bastards.

And this in turn will allow them to create even more drama. Possibly the type that was promised but never delivered on Voyager with the Federation crew and Maquis crew constantly at each other's throats. That got lost really early. If they do this on BSG I can imagine the hard feelings will linger for quite a long while.

They really did need a third part to confront Adama and Roslin. They had settled down into their roles and thought that was the end.

Yeah, that was one part of the episode I really enjoyed. There was this interesting tension/dynamic going on with the three of them. I think they nailed that.

I don't think that every person on Pegasus would be worthy of our hate. It's just the ones who aren't arrogant, sadistic bastards aren't really going to poke their heads up and say, Here I am.... I think a few will emerge and find their way to Galactica along with some of the arrogant, sadistic bastards.

You're probably right. Hopefully.

If they do this on BSG I can imagine the hard feelings will linger for quite a long while.

Definitely.

I have to agree. I think that Cain oppressed or killed people who objected. The ones who lived stayed in the shadows, and Cain certainly wouldn't have let them get to Adama's ship where they might have ratted on her. Lee was transferred as a hostage, and Adama knew it when it happened.

And I thought the "Deck Chief", the non-military guy, was less icky. (Although I missed a bit there due to my kidlet - I may have missed something important, like a preference for sauteed kittens instead of roasted.)

I got the impression that Cain freaked out during the initial cylon attack, and then ran. She became a full-blown tyrant once she was left with no one over her. I suspect there's some history there between her and Adama. The feeling I got when they first made contact was "Of all people, why did *you* have to survive." Adama wasn't smiling, and neither was Cain. You would think they would've if the size of their military had just doubled.

I suspect there are big scary history bits about the Pegasus. I wonder how many we'll actually hear.

It did look like Adama wasn't very pleased with it being Cain. I also thought there was probably some history there. And a multi-episode thread would have been better to bring it out.

Another question is, if the Pegasus Deck Chief was a civilian, where is the group of civilians he was with? Did she abondan the useless civilians???

But wait a minute. Wasn't the Pegasus stuck in a big rock in space???
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BWAH!!

While writing my comment it just suddenly struck me about the TNG ship called Pegasus. That's just how my brain works.

OMG TNG!!!!

*cuddles fond memories*

We all have fond memories TNG. And of course, we also have some putrid memories too. But we take the good with the bad.

And yes, this one really felt rushed in places. I would have loved for it to have been drawn out longer. There was so much packed into one ep. It felt like they shook hands, growled, and started brawling.

But it was awesome acting.

It was very rushed (I think it originally came in at 75 minutes or something like that) and I wish they'd slowed down. But the black and white thing doesn't bother me, I think because I read not as "we're the good guys and you're evil," but "there but for the grace of God."

I actually don't feel like I need to know a lot more about the the Pegasus characters -- my brain just automatically filled in the way they must have been living for the last few months(though it's true I went in assuming that, because I know the original series so well), and that was enough for me. Though at the same time, I'm guessing some of that will end up in the deleted scenes on the DVD.

Don't ask me why they didn't just turn it into a three-parter. Maybe they could only have Michelle Forbes for two episodes for some reason.

And I thought the "Deck Chief", the non-military guy, was less icky.

Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if he stuck around.

I got the impression that Cain freaked out during the initial cylon attack, and then ran.

Yeah, I think we're not hearing the full truth yet.

She became a full-blown tyrant once she was left with no one over her.

Hmmm. Good point. That kind of leadership style often indicates an underlying insecurity or fear.

I suspect there's some history there between her and Adama. The feeling I got when they first made contact was "Of all people, why did *you* have to survive." Adama wasn't smiling, and neither was Cain. You would think they would've if the size of their military had just doubled.

HMMMM. I hadn't picked up on that, but who knows in the BSG universe?

I suspect there are big scary history bits about the Pegasus. I wonder how many we'll actually hear.

I would have loved to have heard some before we got into an all-out pissing match.

That kind of leadership style often indicates an underlying insecurity or fear.

I got the impression that she was outwardly so calm because she'd snapped earlier and done things that part of her couldn't justify. As such, she had to continue to be over the line, or she'd have to face how wrong she was initially. Inwardly out of control to the point that she had to show no emotion. Very dangerous person to be in charge.

Yeah, I had the same reaction. I can kind of understand that Cain has pretty much poisoned the minds of her crew, but still... the cylons (in the form of the brutalized six) were much more sympathetic in this episode than the actual humans. Which is kind of crappy.

Yeah. Maybe like

greenpear mentioned above, if they had built up this conflict over more than one episode, it would have been more palatable. It could have given us time to get to know these people's rational and thought processes before drawing an obvious line in the sand.

I thought that as well... that it was like they crammed too much into this one episode, and it needed to develop at a slower, more subtle pace.

I've actually felt like that on a couple of episodes this season. They just need to slow it all down. Men! ;)

*snicker*

I agree. The crew of the Pegasus, those we've seen so far, all seem to lack humanity, but to a degree, I like that. They all lost pretty much everything and on the Galactica they dealt with it by fighting back. There is a certain line they won't cross, at least most of them. The president did send a cylon out an airlock. After Starbuck tortured him. The first Sharon got shot (and Adama pretty much let her shooter get away with it). Generally though, the crew of the Galactica fights by being smarter. While the Pegasus crew fights by being meaner.

I agree. The crew of the Pegasus, those we've seen so far, all seem to lack humanity, but to a degree, I like that.

Maybe I'm expecting too much. I want to see why they are that way.

They all lost pretty much everything and on the Galactica they dealt with it by fighting back. There is a certain line they won't cross, at least most of them. The president did send a cylon out an airlock. After Starbuck tortured him. The first Sharon got shot (and Adama pretty much let her shooter get away with it).

It's not that I'm trying to say I don't like the people on the Pegasus because they do bad things, it's just that right now they're very one-dimensional. We're not seeing their underside, so to speak. It's all just on the surface. I guess I'm used to the more complex characters we've gotten in the past.

Generally though, the crew of the Galactica fights by being smarter. While the Pegasus crew fights by being meaner.

I'd totally agree. I think Cain said it best when she talked about the best defense being a good offense. If you play offense, you have to use strength. To play defense, you gotta use wits. And that's very much the difference between the two.

We've all come to expect more from this show. But I think that's a good thing.

The Galactica crew has crossed some lines. Some of the same lines that the Pegasus crew crossed. They killed a defenseless Cylon and allowed the crew to get away with some questionable actions. But there always seemed to be a reason. The Pegasus crew doesn't seem to have a reason for doing it except pure agression. I still chalk that up to being handpicked by Cain and being browbeaten to be agressive.

The Galactica has had almost 50,000 people to worry about. You can't really be on the offense when you've got so many defensless ships hanging around.

You can't really be on the offense when you've got so many defensless ships hanging around.

Plus the hope of finding Earth is, I think, something that really influenced the people on the Galactica. The people on the Pegasus must have thought that they were the last of the human race and therefore the only thing they could do (and have the training to do) is taking down as many of the enemy as they could, before humanity would cease existing.

After months of being alone you'd probably develop the attitude of Kill of be Killed! And the Admiral couldn't cope when she encountered humanity again.

But someone else mentioned it looked like there was history between Adama and Cain. Wonder if we'll ever find out if that's true.

The people on the Pegasus must have thought that they were the last of the human race and therefore the only thing they could do (and have the training to do) is taking down as many of the enemy as they could, before humanity would cease existing.

That was very explicit in the original series episodes Pegasus episodes. They never did do subtlety very well ...

it's just that right now they're very one-dimensional. We're not seeing their underside, so to speak. It's all just on the surface. I guess I'm used to the more complex characters we've gotten in the past.

But wasn't there this story about the XO getting shot for not following orders? I can see why anyone would like to hide their none-confirming "underside" in that invironment. Fear is a pretty good motivator/excuse to do or not something. Here we have a group of soldiers with an enemy who is (convienently) not human (therefore it can be tortured and raped without remorse) and that enemy has just taken away everything they had. It has brought out the worst in them. I would have like to see something about their developement from regular soldiers to this pack of rat bastards... Additionally. as far as I can tell, they do not have the hope of finding Earth on the Pegasus so revenge is all they have left. Plus, Cain's rules allow them to completely disregard all ethics.

I do have hope for some conflict though. That last shot on the bridge of the Pegasus showed all the officers and they did look as if they objected Cain's order. But they did launch the Vipers... Is it January 11th yet?

There was more than just a momentary hesitation. Some of them looked like they thought she was nuts. But I guess nobody else felt it was their place to get shot in the head.

And no, it's not January 11th yet. :((

Like your subtitle: Over-educated and unemployable. Seems to be a mantra or quite a few people I know.

The first thing I thought of when I saw what was happening with Admiral Cain and the crew of the Pegasus, was the behaviour of Captains of Royal Naval vessels during the Age of Sail - particularly those on detached duty. Captain Bligh being one particular example.

What happened in those cases was that, for all intents and purposes, the Captain of the ship was God. He was literally the master and commander of the ship and all that was on her. Now while there were many captains who were fair, if not necessarily just, there were also a great many who were little more than tyrants with the crews of their ships. The use of the lash was a very frequent occurrance, and the captain could basically assign any punishment that he wanted.

This was all possible as the nearest senior officer could literally be months of sailing time away. There was nobody that they had to answer to.

I think that's what happened with Cain. With the fall of the Colonies, and especially with her blind jump, she was left on her own. Any more senior survivors were most unlikely to ever be seen again, and so she was the absolute ruler of her domain, and she ran it as she saw fit. In order to make sure that nobody would ever challenge her, she basically slapped down anyone that could disagree with her approach and replaced them with people that either were loyal to her, or were weak willed enough that they wouldn't object. The result was a large number of "jackasses" who felt they could do what they wanted because they would get away with it as long as it followed Cain's POV.

The difference with Galactica was that they always had someone else to look out for, and civilians to help stop the military from getting out of control. It gave them a sense of mission and responsibility that went over and above standard military regularions. All the crew of the Pegasus had was Cain and her brutal point of view. It can make a huge difference.

Ditto. But one other observation. Was it me, or were there no other female crew on the Pegasus? Just think about it, yeah, you're the commanding officer of this lone battleship, but you're the only female onboard, and you have no clue if anyone else is left alive out there. Pretty damn scary considering how animalistic guys can become when denied certain urges (look at what they did to that Six). To keep control, you have to show you're stronger than them, keep them in fear of you, respect is for wimps. Of course, this can become even worse when they get sick and tired of listening to you and turn on you, which I can see happening to Cain, at least with some of her crew.

Oh yeah, and I can see some of the Pegasus crew turning on Cain because now they see they have options, where before they had none.

Very good point.

I just wish that we had been able to see something behind these people. Something more. I would have been equally annoyed if all these people were of the Mary Sue variety. It's not that I can't handle them all being "bad," I just felt they were all very flat. It was a writing-character issue rather than an internal-character issue.

I think/hope that we're going to get some grey hats in the premiere. My personal theory is that the fact that Tyrol used to serve on the Pegasus is going to come into play - I think some of the guys he served with are going to see the light and help him and Helo stay alive until rescue can come. Cause I wouldn't be surprised if Cain orders Tyrol and Helo executed while the battle is still going on, just because she can.

That *should* be really interesting to see how/if they make it out alive. I wouldn't put it past TPTB to kill a character off.

But if they kill Helo or Tyrol I'd cry! I spent the entire first season waiting for Helo to die cause I couldn't see how he'd get off Caprica, and now that he's finally back with Galactica they can't just kill him! *clings to Helo and Tyrol*

I know! I totally thought Helo was screwed back then. I'd think they'd want to keep him around for a while with the baby storyline and all. But never say never!

I've read various comments about this particular episode, and I'm still trying to come up with my own conclusions. However, one interesting thing I noted was that the Galactica has one thing that the Pegasus lacks - civilian leadership. They were, supposedly, out there all alone. I'm still debating this part because if this is the case, then where did the civilian engineer come from?

Adama and Roslin have formed a partnership to keep the fleet going. Yes, it hasn't been easy and the power shifts have continued, but I think as of Home Part II, they've found a balance. In the mini, it was Roslin who was the voice of reason, making Adama see that the war with the Cylons was over and that all they had left was to keep the survivors of the human race alive. Cain's crew doesn't have that. For them, it's all about the mentality of fighting back against the machines that destroyed everything and everyone they knew.

I'm still debating this part because if this is the case, then where did the civilian engineer come from?

Didn't they say they were in dry-dock when it all happened? If their military is anything like ours, civilian engineers run rampant for big projects.

In the mini, it was Roslin who was the voice of reason, making Adama see that the war with the Cylons was over and that all they had left was to keep the survivors of the human race alive. Cain's crew doesn't have that. For them, it's all about the mentality of fighting back against the machines that destroyed everything and everyone they knew.

Yup, that's so true.

Didn't they say they were in dry-dock when it all happened? If their military is anything like ours, civilian engineers run rampant for big projects.

Hmm, didn't think of that. You know those government contractors... :)

BSG 2x10

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