mrv3000 | The Matrix 2

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The Matrix 2

Well, I've had a night to digest The Matrix 2. You'd never know it from the following, but I really did enjoy this movie. Fantastic eye candy, great score and pretty people. What's not to love? If you haven't seen it, go see it!

But, the movie brought out the critic in me. Betcha didn't know I could be this picky. Well, okay. You knew.

This is long. I just couldn't stop writing. This was more of me wanting to get my thoughts down about some of the points that bugged me. Proceed at your own risk. Seriously.

Let's just start towards the beginning. Oh boy. The bash-you-over-the-head symbolism. First, the grateful kid that we never saw again. Okay, I would have been fine with him underscoring the messianic theme (actually, at first I thought it was a really nice touch). Unfortunately, they didn't stop there. Next we get the hoard of people offering gifts and wanting Neo to bless them (or something). And then the gathering a place they called the "temple" (or church or whatever - forgot what they exactly called it.) Not enough? Okay then. Let's cut to a shot of a table filled with religious trinkets (mainly of Jesus but throwing a few other religions in there as well.) GET IT?!!! *whimper* Yes! For the love of Neo, we get it!

The cutting between the Neo/Trinity sex scene and the dancers felt off to me. Visually I can see why...no, I really can't. Don't know why they did it. The love scene was *beautifully* shot and I would rather have just seen Neo's dream intercut with it. Made it all about them and Neo's lovely angst. The dancing scene was frenzied and gratuitous. The sex scene was *not* frenzied and *not* gratuitous. It was however passionate, intimate and a fantastic moment between these two - resolving the scene with desperation. Why were the dancers in there again?

Speaking of which - I thought all the "plugs" were taken out of Neo (except the head one) in the first movie. Did everyone still have these plugs in the first movie? I thought everyone just had the head ones.

The pacing of this movie - oy. Towards the middle-end I felt like yelling, "quit yapping!" The middle of the film was completely dominated by long, heady dialogues/speeches. I think it's the first time in a movie where I was *begging* for another fight scene. But I'll give them that this movie was in essence, act two of the arc. Act two is what furthers the plot. Act two is where things can start to go horribly wrong. It can have an anti-climax (which is what this did). Act two is basically a bitch if you're trying to get it to stand alone.

I gotta mention it - Neo reviving Trinity. Okay, most of that scene was *great*. I totally buy that he would reach in to start her heart - *anything* to get her back and he had that power. Very cool. It's just that...uh, the second she opens her eyes, she jumps up and kisses him. I don't think it got the reaction in the audience I was with that the makers were looking for. *wince* People in the theater laughed. (Actually, I let out a short bark myself - I couldn't help it - it was involuntary.) Who knows, maybe we're all just a bunch of cynical bastards down here, but I thought that part was cheesy. Not that they wouldn't kiss, it's just the way it was shot. I think the timing of it made it more comedic than dramatic.

Fate vs. free will. Did you catch this as a theme? Too subtle? ;) Got this from

nandamai's blog. No, she didn't write it. It came from The Matrix Essays Blog

"Choice is the problem... If you consider destiny and free will not as a "versus", but as opposite polarities, or two sides of the same coin, then they are both present and ever working with one another. For example, if darkness did not exist, then light would have no definition either. The Matrix argues that there is no free will, that all things are supposed to be the way they are...through causality or destiny or whatever. But Neo reveals the power of choice to alter the destiny the Matrix has planned for him, even though that planned destiny has led him - through causality - the whole way. Free will exists because destiny does, and vice versa."

I gotta disagree. Fate is or it isn't. Unlike darkness or light, there are no varying degrees. No twilight or shadows for fate. It's all or nothing. If you say you have free will and choice to a certain point and then fate takes over, well, it's not really fate. Cause and effect, yes. Inevitability, yes. But not fate. And this is where I think the movie got muddy. It tried to give us both...or maybe it didn't really give us both - I have to admit, I found the logic a bit hard to follow between Neo and The Architect. Well, it was still morning and maybe I needed more coffee.

It was this confusing logic dialogue between the two that began to make me to think that Zion is/was still part of the matrix. Then all of a sudden Neo can control sentinels in the "real world." Hmm. Very suspicious. Of course, the makers of the movies can really take this in whatever direction they want. Possible alternatives:

Everyone is still in the matrix. Always have been. The Architect realized certain people would never accept the "1999 matrix" and so created a "real world" where they wouldn't question it because they thought they were free. Somewhere, Neo/Trinity/etc. are still batteries.
Ditto on the point above, except they aren't human batteries somewhere. They're all programs running around. They just don't understand that they're programs.
Zion was real. Neo/Trinity/etc. are real and are now running around. As above, The Architect realized certain people wouldn't accept the "1999 matrix" and so really let them go. The problem is that The Architect seems to have control over Zion - they've destroyed and rebuilt it 6 times. Why risk really letting them go when it could be a safe fabrication within the matrix? [ETA - and how could Neo control the sentinels?]

*stops to take a breath*

Whee! I love that this movie made me put on my thinking cap!

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You realise that this is a looooong damn post, don't you?

GET IT?!!! *whimper* Yes! For the love of Neo, we get it!

Yes, there was a lot of symbolism there - although that kid did show up two more times. In fact, he's the one that distracts the Smith in human form from attacking Neo. But you're right, they did pretty much bash us over the head with the symbolism.

The sex scene was *not* frenzied and *not* gratuitous. It was however passionate, intimate and a fantastic moment between these two - resolving the scene with desperation. Why were the dancers in there again?

I was also put out with the blatant bump and grind of the dancers compared with how surprisingly intimate the love scene, and I'll call it that becuase it wasn't gratuitous, between Trinity and Neo was. Whether this was because Carrie Ann Moss didn't want to get her gear off, or for some other reason I don't know, but I personally think that the whole scene was much better because of it. It made both the characters more intimate and less out for sex - played nicely against the elevator scene where they're all over each other.

Speaking of which - I thought all the "plugs" were taken out of Neo (except the head one) in the first movie. Did everyone still have these plugs in the first movie? I thought everyone just had the head ones.

Now I'm going to "have" to go back and watch The Matrix again to check!! Isn't that terrible?

The pacing of this movie - oy

Agreed, it was slow in the middle - although I appreciated Neo's conversation with the Councillor far more than the planning sessions and Morpheus' speech. That somehow seemed to be far more related to the plot than the additional symbolism they were dumping on us.

I gotta mention it - Neo reviving Trinity.

I agree that it was a bit quick - but remember that it's their Matrix personas that are recovering, not the real world ones, as the actual body wasn't physically harmed. I think I just got caught up in the whole massive shippiness of the situation and didn't really notice how quick the passionate kiss afterwards really was.

Fate is or it isn't.

That's what Morpheus would have us believe. He certainly seemed to be preaching that no matter what decisions we made, what we did, whether we lived or died, everything would work out the way fate had predicted.

But I think that Neo was trying to present something else - that there still is choice in a given situation. The Architect had controlled the development of Zion so that he could keep The Matrix running, and in that sense Morpheus was right. Everything that happened was following the overall plan of The Architect - and in that sense it was a programmed fate. Neo was given a choice though - showing that the programming of The Architect only went so far. Beyond that point, once you were able to escape the boundaries of the code, there was still choice. And even though it was just one decision, what happened to a great many people depended on it.

Does that really mean anything? I don't know - but I think that they were saying that despite what some people believe about fate, there is still choice.

t was this confusing logic dialogue between the two that began to make me to think that Zion is/was still part of the matrix.

That's obviously one possibility. Or maybe it's that Neo is now linked with the machines in some way that had not occurred before, as all the other "Ones" had made the "correct choice".

Maybe they are all programs? Maybe this is an artificial reality where even the machines are not real, and it allows humans from a future age to play at living in a different time? Anything's possible!

Whee! I love that this movie made me put on my thinking cap!

Isn't it cool? And I so want to see it again, but suspect I will have to wait until it comes out on DVD as I won't have the opportunity.

And that's a question. Do you know when it will be out on DVD? Must be before Matrix Revolutions, right?

Let's just start towards the beginning. Oh boy. The bash-you-over-the-head symbolism.

Oh yeah. And usually I cannot stand that shit. And yet here, I still love it. Weird.

First, the grateful kid that we never saw again.

Well, we did -- he runs into the temple, and later gives Neo the spoon. But yes, you're right, he does come out of nowhere -- unless you've seen the Animatrix, apparently. We learn all about him in one of the shorts.

The cutting between the Neo/Trinity sex scene and the dancers felt off to me.

I think they were both underscoring the same themes of love, passion, and hope, and it totally worked for me. But it's quite possible that the real reason I got so into this scene (these scenes) is that if you play Juno Reactor immediately followed by Fluke at a very loud volume I will love you and be your whore forever.

Speaking of which - I thought all the "plugs" were taken out of Neo (except the head one) in the first movie.

Hmm. Good point. I know he kept at least some in his arms, because when he first woke up in his cabin he pulled the IV out of a plug. Maybe they only take out some of them -- and that's why everybody in Zion (well, the Matrix-born) has them in different places on their bodies?

The pacing of this movie - oy. Towards the middle-end I felt like yelling, "quit yapping!"

Yes. Definitely. Way too much speechifying. Drove me batty the first time -- but the second time, I found that I was so interested in what they were saying that I didn't mind. Except for Morpheus' speech. Blech.

But I'll give them that this movie was in essence, act two of the arc. Act two is what furthers the plot. Act two is where things can start to go horribly wrong. It can have an anti-climax (which is what this did). Act two is basically a bitch if you're trying to get it to stand alone.

And they really weren't trying to make it stand alone, either. This movie very much depends on the next one. And yeah, I think that is a flaw.

I gotta mention it - Neo reviving Trinity. It's just that...uh, the second she opens her eyes, she jumps up and kisses him.

Oh yeah. Definitely cheesy. And it's really too bad, because it's such a gorgeous scene (both the way it was filmed, and what it says) otherwise! And god I wish they had left out that stupid "I guess now we're even" line. DUH! We get it!

I gotta disagree. Fate is or it isn't. Unlike darkness or light, there are no varying degrees.

Am totally still going around and around on the fate thing in my head and have not had enough tea yet to contemplate it.

Possible alternatives:
Everyone is still in the matrix. Always have been. The Architect realized certain people would never accept the "1999 matrix" and so created a "real world" where they wouldn't question it because they thought they were free. Somewhere, Neo/Trinity/etc. are still batteries.

This is possible. Depressing, but possible.

Ditto on the point above, except they aren't human batteries somewhere. They're all programs running around. They just don't understand that they're programs.

But then why would they exist at all? Or, why would the Matrix exist? Or something. Ugh. Need more tea.

Zion was real. Neo/Trinity/etc. are real and are now running around. As above, The Architect realized certain people wouldn't accept the "1999 matrix" and so really let them go. The problem is that The Architect seems to have control over Zion - they've destroyed and rebuilt it 6 times. Why risk really letting them go when it could be a safe fabrication within the matrix? [ETA - and how could Neo control the sentinels?]
*stops to take a breath*

This is the solution I *want* to believe, but yeah, it doesn't all fit. Boo-hoo.

Whee! I love that this movie made me put on my thinking cap!

Yeah. Fun!

You realise that this is a looooong damn post, don't you?

Hahaha! Well, I did warn!

Yes, there was a lot of symbolism there - although that kid did show up two more times. In fact, he's the one that distracts the Smith in human form from attacking Neo.

Yeah, I should have been more specific. They made a big deal of him towards the beginning of the movie - and then he disappeared.

It made both the characters more intimate and less out for sex - played nicely against the elevator scene where they're all over each other.

Oh yeah. One of the best moments of the movie, actually. And that was a nice contrast between then and the elevator.

although I appreciated Neo's conversation with the Councillor far more than the planning sessions and Morpheus' speech. That somehow seemed to be far more related to the plot than the additional symbolism they were dumping on us.

Urg. Yeah. Morpheus' speech. :P

I think I just got caught up in the whole massive shippiness of the situation and didn't really notice how quick the passionate kiss afterwards really was.

Aw. :) It might have been some fluke of nature that all these cynical people were in the same theater with me yesterday.

That's what Morpheus would have us believe. He certainly seemed to be preaching that no matter what decisions we made, what we did, whether we lived or died, everything would work out the way fate had predicted.

I was thinking more of the classic understanding of fate, never mind what Morpheus was saying. In general terms (outside of the matrix universe) I think that "fate" is something that must be accepted or rejected. An all or nothing kind of thing as opposed to the quote from that Matrix essay. Morpheus was definitely in the fate camp.

But I think that Neo was trying to present something else - that there still is choice in a given situation.

I totally agree. :) I still think that choice and fate can't coincide and thus my hang-up with this part.

Neo was given a choice though - showing that the programming of The Architect only went so far.

That I can accept. But then it's not fate anymore and never was to begin with. Overall plan - yes. Fate - no.

Does that really mean anything? I don't know - but I think that they were saying that despite what some people believe about fate, there is still choice.

Then I'd say it wasn't fate but free will or choice all along. Fate is a predetermined end. And you can't get there if there are forks in the road.

Antagonistic little turkey, aren't I?

Oh - UNLESS, all forks lead to that predetermined end. Didn't think about that. No matter what choice you make, it will get you to that end. Thus fate and choice coincide. However, choice becomes meaningless.

Or maybe it's that Neo is now linked with the machines in some way that had not occurred before, as all the other "Ones" had made the "correct choice".

Yep - they could go that way too. They really left it wide open for whatever they decided to do with the 3rd one.

Maybe they are all programs? Maybe this is an artificial reality where even the machines are not real, and it allows humans from a future age to play at living in a different time? Anything's possible!

Yep - another possibility.

Heh heh. When the Oracle said she was a program, I was thinking Tron. :P

Oh yeah. And usually I cannot stand that shit. And yet here, I still love it. Weird.

Yeah, in spite of it, I still really liked the movies.

Well, we did -- he runs into the temple, and later gives Neo the spoon.

Should have been more specific. I realized it was the kid with the spoon. It's just that they made a big deal out of him at the beginning and then he disappeared.

unless you've seen the Animatrix, apparently. We learn all about him in one of the shorts.

Never even *heard* of Animatrix. Why am I picturing Pokimon?

But it's quite possible that the real reason I got so into this scene (these scenes) is that if you play Juno Reactor immediately followed by Fluke at a very loud volume I will love you and be your whore forever.

Hahahaha!!

Yes. Definitely. Way too much speechifying. Drove me batty the first time -- but the second time, I found that I was so interested in what they were saying that I didn't mind. Except for Morpheus' speech. Blech.

Hmm...that could have been my problem. I was expecting non-stop special effects. If I saw it a second time I'd know what was coming and wouldn't be waiting for the next fight scene.

Oh yeah. Definitely cheesy. And it's really too bad, because it's such a gorgeous scene (both the way it was filmed, and what it says) otherwise! And god I wish they had left out that stupid "I guess now we're even" line. DUH! We get it!

I don't think I even heard that line. Probably drowned out from the laughing. Seriously though, you could tell there was this uncomfortable vibe in the theater during that part (laughing - think I even heard an "oh brother") - as in "did I really see something that cheesy in Cool Summer Movie?"

Am totally still going around and around on the fate thing in my head and have not had enough tea yet to contemplate it.

*contemplates both tea and no tea*

This is the solution I *want* to believe, but yeah, it doesn't all fit. Boo-hoo.

It will seem like a big cheat if/when they turn out not to be human yet, but still in the matrix. But who knows what'll happen with this.

Yeah, I should have been more specific. They made a big deal of him towards the beginning of the movie - and then he disappeared.

It's probably one of those things where the actual character was used a lot more, only it all hit the cutting room floor.

Oh yeah. One of the best moments of the movie, actually. And that was a nice contrast between then and the elevator.

Definitely agree with you there. Very tastefully done - I was most impressed!

It might have been some fluke of nature that all these cynical people were in the same theater with me yesterday.

I suppose that's possible. Either that or I'm just a complete Sap! I have to admit to not hearing any laughter during that scene though. Maybe we're all slow in NH!

In general terms (outside of the matrix universe) I think that "fate" is something that must be accepted or rejected. An all or nothing kind of thing as opposed to the quote from that Matrix essay. Morpheus was definitely in the fate camp.

I guess you're right there - you either accept your fate, or you do not. But even that is presenting us with a choice. It is an all or nothing kind of thing though, and Morpheus was right there accepting it.

Personally I'd like to think that there is more for me here than just accepting some nameless fate. I can contribute more, achieve more, be more, than just someone doing what I must. That's why I definitely go with the choice thing. *g*

I still think that choice and fate can't coincide and thus my hang-up with this part.

It could be that they're trying to meld the Star Wars eastern mysticism with Christianity and just getting themselves confused in the process. I'd need to see it several times over to really make that determination, but perhaps they're just showing presentations of the different belief systems - Morpheus is of the eastern belief system where fate is paramount, and Neo is of the system of choice, that typically associated with Christianity.

But then it's not fate anymore and never was to begin with. Overall plan - yes. Fate - no.

No, it's not fate in the true sense of the word - but to the poeple living within The Matrix it *was* true fate - they had no control over events, and seemingly no choice in what happened. Everything was structured to get to a conclusion, and only Neo got the choice.

And you can't get there if there are forks in the road.

One of the reasons why I have never really understood the whole concept behind believing that there is a particular fate for us all.

Antagonistic little turkey, aren't I?

No. Simply provoking intellectual conversation!

UNLESS, all forks lead to that predetermined end. Didn't think about that. No matter what choice you make, it will get you to that end. Thus fate and choice coincide. However, choice becomes meaningless.

If choice becomes meaningless, then it is no longer choice, and hence contradicts itself. So the two belief systems are still seemingly unable to coexist.

They really left it wide open for whatever they decided to do with the 3rd one.

Yup. Leaves us all guessing about what might happen next, and ensures good ticket sales for the last movie! ;)

When the Oracle said she was a program, I was thinking Tron.

Now, that was a cool movie - the original one I mean. And yes, I think I even saw that on a big screen. Am I dating myself here??

Personally I'd like to think that there is more for me here than just accepting some nameless fate. I can contribute more, achieve more, be more, than just someone doing what I must. That's why I definitely go with the choice thing. *g*

Oh yeah. I'm not really in the fate camp. I just like to argue philosophy. *g*

It could be that they're trying to meld the Star Wars eastern mysticism with Christianity and just getting themselves confused in the process.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Morpheus is of the eastern belief system where fate is paramount, and Neo is of the system of choice, that typically associated with Christianity.

Yep. And it could be that the creators were trying to have an on-screen philosophical argument, but that part was so mucky and dense that I'm not willing to give them that much credit. Yet. Drat. I may need to see it again too. Couple of other movies I want to see first though. Like A Mighty Wind.

No, it's not fate in the true sense of the word - but to the poeple living within The Matrix it *was* true fate - they had no control over events, and seemingly no choice in what happened. Everything was structured to get to a conclusion, and only Neo got the choice.

I get hung up on words. Yep - Neo got the choice in the end. I suppose you could pull in the messianic theme again here. Except Neo didn't save the world. Well, he still might. But he took the selfish choice.

No. Simply provoking intellectual conversation!

Good! I agree! :)

If choice becomes meaningless, then it is no longer choice, and hence contradicts itself. So the two belief systems are still seemingly unable to coexist.

Lousy paradoxes. *g* Yeah. Choice would be in name only.

Yup. Leaves us all guessing about what might happen next, and ensures good ticket sales for the last movie! ;)

Oh yeah.

Now, that was a cool movie - the original one I mean. And yes, I think I even saw that on a big screen. Am I dating myself here??

Well, I don't remember if I saw it in the theater or not. I might have. So I'm dating myself as well. :)

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The Matrix 2

You're trying to make me think! ;)

Spoooon!

I have a hang-up about fate

There is no spoon.

Re: I have a hang-up about fate

Re: I have a hang-up about fate