Step 1: Get sent something. Step 2: *scratch head* Step 3: Yap on and on about it. Step 4: Repeat

[mrv3000]

Yeah, I'm hearing of flailing going on after a certain something in Torchwood that relates to Doctor Who. And I then wonder, "well, what's so bad about...?" And *then* I start typing as I can't help myself.



Bad Wolf, baby!

Let me first say I'm not even 100% convinced that the appearance of "Bad Wolf" means Rose will return. I mean, I'd like it to, I won't lie, but that reference behind Jack could easily be a reference to his immortality and nothing more. Since it happened, you know, during the events of/by BadWolf!Rose. And who knows - perhaps BadWolf!Rose wanted the Doctor to have a hand to hold at this point in his life, and who better than someone immortal and someone he likes? And so the reference was that she wanted to bring them together, and that's why she kept him alive for a reason, as Jack said. Or something. Yeah, that's not very strong, is it?

I'm almost hesitant to throw this out there because it's such a "what if" thing. But apparently people have started expounding on the "what if" and so whatever. Again, I don't go looking for this stuff, but instead get emails from people. (Who seem to be very aware that it only angries up the blood. *eyes*)

But one issue that seems to keep popping up in the hand-wringing of the possibility of Rose's return is "Rose's story has already been told, dammit!" I'm gonna need a little help on this one to get me there.

In Army of Ghosts (or was it Doomsday – maybe both) there were her infamous words of "this is the last story I'll ever tell." Well, that served its purpose as a dramatic device, which was meant to mislead people into thinking that she might die by the end. But that's pretty much all you can put on it – a device, since even if she never comes back, it obviously won't be the last story she will ever tell. The "story" of her life will go on, one way or another. And since I'm talking external at the moment, I think both RTD and BP have said statements in effect of "never say never/anything can happen in sci-fi." So from a writing/show standpoint, I just don't think this can be ruled out just from the AoG words.

But now taking a look at the internal context of Rose's "story." A story of Rose's life has been told, but can you really say that her story in completion has been told? She ended up being ripped away from the one place she truly wanted to be in one of the most unresolved departures I've ever seen on TV. I guess one argument for this is that Rose needed to "grow up" and "go home," and in that way, her story has been told. Again, I'm gonna need a little help getting to how being sucked into an AU is "going home" and/or "growing up." (Not that I don't have huge problems with this Rose-growing-up/go-home concept at a fundamental level, but that would be another 10 pages right there.)

You know, one thing I never seem to hear in all this never-ending Rose debate, is what about the Doctor? No one ever really seems to focus on him for some reason, and I just don't get that. What about the Doctor's story? To me, The Runaway Bride pointed out that the Doctor needs something in his life beyond the endless travel. And yeah, that's a huge departure from Classic Who, where he was pleased as punch to be this eccentric nomad and that's it. No, I do not think he's suddenly itching to settle down with a mortgage. He loves his life/lifestyle and can't picture him ever leaving the TARDIS. But he also needs something more, which is now part of his story. And Rose really is that something more to him. There's probably that knee-jerk in some circles of, "oh God, not her," but fools in love and all that. She makes him profoundly happy - with her he's loved, accepted, belongs, is balanced, has a best friend who loves his life as much as he does, and probably several other reasons all his own. But if he can't have Rose back in his life, then I'm really hoping the Face of Boe's secret is a long lost kid (a concept I loathed pre-The Runaway Bride) or another Time Lord's out there or something. Because to me, his story right now is about needing Rose, but he may have to settle for something else, sadly.

So, no. I do not think that Rose's story has been completely told, nor do I think the story of the Doctor and Rose has been completely told. However, it might be, as far as what we actually get on screen – who knows what this "Bad Wolf" will really end up meaning. And then I guess we gotta stick with fic.

I just ask one thing – if we do see Rose at the end of S3, please let it be that BP has signed on for S4 as I seriously could not take yet another Doomsday separation, even if it came in the form of "she's better off where she is." That's fine for Rose and all, but yet another sledgehammer to the Doctor. I rather like the Doctor, and am getting sick of him getting beaten up. So if the plan is to discover Rose's fantastic AU life where she decides to stay in the AU, or she's too old to go back with him or something, I would MUCH rather they not have Rose reappear at all. *pats the Doctor*

Heh. There are still going to be wars and debates over Rose 30 years from now, aren't there? Fandom, you so crazy.

Comments

[kammgirl.livejournal.com]

Oh well Michelle the people who hate Rose will always hate her. I used to wonder when I would read certain things if I was watching a different show. Now, like you, I just don't look anymore.

And Rose really is that something more to him. There's probably that knee-jerk in some circles of, "oh God, not her," but fools in love and all that.

And as always my response is why not Rose? The Doctor loves humanity and Rose was a layered character who showed growth, courage, strength and an unending enthusiasm for knowledge and adventure. I think the Doctor wass lucky to have found her, and of course we know how much he changed her life for the better.

OT: My e-mail is acting wonky but I dropped you a note yesterday that I gave you a heads up in my TW review. :)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Oh well Michelle the people who hate Rose will always hate her. I used to wonder when I would read certain things if I was watching a different show. Now, like you, I just don't look anymore.

Yeah, everyone would probably just end up talking in circles.

And as always my response is why not Rose? The Doctor loves humanity and Rose was a layered character who showed growth, courage, strength and an unending enthusiasm for knowledge and adventure. I think the Doctor wass lucky to have found her, and of course we know how much he changed her life for the better.

Well, *I* like the character, flaws and all, but I know how it is to dislike a character when everyone else seems to love them. But it's more of a "well, I'm not the one that has to be in love with Rose, this is the Doctor's thing" to me in a way.

OT: My e-mail is acting wonky but I dropped you a note yesterday that I gave you a heads up in my TW review. :)

Oh, okay.

[kammgirl.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah I got what you meant, I just never understood the rationale of those with the opinion that the Doctor would never love someone like Rose. I understand liking or disliking her, everyone has their own opinions, but I could never get the notion that Rose is so inadequate compared to other companions. They had their flaws as well as does the Doctor.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

but I could never get the notion that Rose is so inadequate compared to other companions. They had their flaws as well as does the Doctor.

Oh yeah. Totally agree.

Shoot, I'm even willing to admit that you could consider other people to be more "competent" than Rose in the companion department. But...so what? She was no superwoman, but who is? And I don't think he fell in love with her because she was the most awesomest "assistant" ever. Hell, I find the fact that he was mad about her *in spite* of some glaring flaws to be even more endearing.

[kammgirl.livejournal.com]

OT: My e-mail is acting wonky but I dropped you a note yesterday that I gave you a heads up in my TW review. :)

Oh, okay.



D'oh I meant a shout out not a heads up. LOL You must have been like ummm okay Kammi that's nice. Just nod at the silly woman.

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

Oh well Michelle the people who hate Rose will always hate her.

And then there's the part where one can actually rather like Rose, and even like the Doctor and Rose together, and not be on board with the OTP.

Sorry, it just gets a little wearing for that to be apparently out of the realm of possibility. Then again, I'm not e-flailing at Michelle... ;-)

[elismor.livejournal.com]

One is not alone. :)

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

One got "Carnival of Monsters" for Christmas and is now giggling like a complete nutter...

[kammgirl.livejournal.com]

I actually don't hold the OTP anymore. To me as a fan they are the OTP, but Rose is gone now and I am sure there will be other loves along the way (it has been such a big part of New Who's popularity, that I can't see them retiring the romance aspect.) I personally will always want a reunion because I tend to stay loyal to ships I love, but realistically I know that with Rose gone, the Doctor will eventually move on.

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

(it has been such a big part of New Who's popularity, that I can't see them retiring the romance aspect.)

*nods* Agreed. (Unfortunately, IMHO, at least somewhat. But it's done, and it's foolish not to absorb it and move on.)

And this is where I'm in TOTAL agreement with Michelle, in hoping they don't feel the need to do it right away/all the time. I'll never totally get over my deep-seated squick at Doctor/companion romance, but I've managed to get on board with the idea that it's happened at various points along the way, and probably will again.

[elismor.livejournal.com]

A story of Rose's life has been told, but can you really say that her story in completion has been told?

Good lord I can't believe I'm letting you suck me into this....but.

Here's the thing, IMO.

Rose is not The Hero [protagonist]. Rose is a sidekick. Sidekicks, by definition, are not the main character of any given story. Sidekicks are foils and companions. Their sole purpose in story telling is to further the story of The Hero. It's true that they might have stories of their own along the way, but those personal stories are secondary.

So, for me, it's not so much that Rose's Story has been told as it is that Rose's portion of The Doctor's Story is over [has been told]. And, IMO, the Doctor's Story from that point forward can only be more interesting without Rose in it. That is not to say that I dislike her (though the accent DID drive me batshit) or that I want her to suffer, or that I want HIM to suffer, for that matter. It's just to say that stories evolve and characters evolve and a reunion that is anything more than fleeting is more like moving backwards or stagnation than it is like evolution.

Story is bigger than character, too. Story is organic and it transcends the wants and needs of the reader/viewer. Sometimes it even transcends the wants and needs of the creator. (I would argue that most, if not all, weak story is the result of an author forcing characters to do things he/she wants them to in order to make the "right" ending--the ending that pleases them or pleases their fans.) I think that this concept of muses that is so rampant in fandom is actually more about authors tapping into Story than it is about them listening to characters talk to them and writing down what they say. And that's a tangent. Whatever.

Anyway. I think it's true that Rose's story--her personal story--is not over. She has umpteen years to live out in that AU and it won't end until she's dead. But, in this case, I have to go with the larger concept. He part of the bigger Story that is Who is over. We will no doubt see the Doctor working through his loss of her--but that is HIS story, not hers.

And that's all I have to say about that.


ps. you're nuts.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Good lord I can't believe I'm letting you suck me into this....but.

HA!! Sucker.

Rose is not The Hero [protagonist]. Rose is a sidekick. Sidekicks, by definition, are not the main character of any given story. Sidekicks are foils and companions. Their sole purpose in story telling is to further the story of The Hero. It's true that they might have stories of their own along the way, but those personal stories are secondary.

Got a couple of points to this. 1) Are you sure she's wasn't the Hero? Especially in S1, pretty much every story revolved around her. 2) Is there only ever one protagonist in a story? 3) Does this story even need to stick to this formula?

And, IMO, the Doctor's Story from that point forward can only be more interesting without Rose in it. That is not to say that I dislike her (though the accent DID drive me batshit) or that I want her to suffer, or that I want HIM to suffer, for that matter. It's just to say that stories evolve and characters evolve and a reunion that is anything more than fleeting is more like moving backwards or stagnation than it is like evolution.

I agree that characters evolve and stories evolve. What I don't understand is how getting Rose back would be a step backwards. I mean it *could* be a step backwards, but it is totally up to how it would be written. I don't think you could say out of hand that Rose coming back "will be this" or "will be that." The separation would have changed them. You could say that in S2, they took each other for granted. And who knows - they could "evolve" into being a bit more serious.

(I would argue that most, if not all, weak story is the result of an author forcing characters to do things he/she wants them to in order to make the "right" ending--the ending that pleases them or pleases their fans.)

Oh yeah. Writing a happy ending just for the sake of a happy ending is not good. However, a happy ending does not necessarily *always* equal weak. And just from everything that has been built up over the two series, in addition to the underscore of Rose's loss in The Runaway Bride, getting Rose back would *not* be a forcing a character to do something *just* to please them/fans. It probably *would* please them/fans, but to me this utterly fits everything they've done with the characters so far.

ps. you're nuts.

BAD WOLF!!!!

[elismor.livejournal.com]

1. If Rose were the Hero, the show would be called Rose Tyler, not Dr. Who.

2. Yes. (mostly)(with the exception of ensemble pieces)(and even then I could argue)

3. Yes. (they teach you this in English Major 101)

I don't think you could say out of hand that Rose coming back "will be this" or "will be that."

I can and I did. So there. :P

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

1, 2, & 3. So, say, with SG-1. Was Jack the "Hero" and everyone else were mere sidekicks?

Heh heh. I'm just not gonna be able to debate with you on this one, am I?

I can and I did. So there. :P

HA! I love the "so there" argument!

(Are you *sure* you'll never write Doctor Who? I totally want an arch-enemy!)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Writing a happy ending just for the sake of a happy ending is not good.

Oh! And just thinking about this whole "happy ending" thing, if Rose *did* come back, it wouldn't be a happy ending as it wouldn't be an ending at all. Just another point in their overall story. Sorta like a *really* prolonged "Doctor thinks Rose is dead, but then discovers she's alive and gets her back" thing from BW/TPotW.

Which Jack totally helped the Doctor in doing...

God, I need to stop thinking like this because I'm just going to get so smacked down when S3 airs and the "Bad Wolf" graffiti was there simply because some set designer thought it was "neat."

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

And, IMO, the Doctor's Story from that point forward can only be more interesting without Rose in it.

I've been thinking about this. Is this because you're more interested in seeing him work through loss? Because you could totally see him do that in S3. Right up until he gets her back. *is evil*

[elismor.livejournal.com]

No, it's because the show is about him, not her.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Well, if like you said below, that the "Hero" is based on who the story revolves around, then I'd *really* say that Rose was the "Hero" in S1, in spite of the show name.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

OH! Have located a breakdown of "Hero," "Protagonist" etc. (Hey, don't blame me. Blame Karen for linking this all back up in her journal.)

http://www.writersstore.com/article.php?articles_id=199

So by this definition, I *would* put the Doctor as "the Protagonist" but I'd also put Rose as "the Main Character."

They're talking about "To Kill a Mockingbird" but... In this case, the Protagonist and Main Character are two different people, and by splitting these functions a stronger message is created.

[splash-the-cat.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Interesting. I've not seen the idea of protagonist broken down quite the way she does it, but my guess it's more an issue of terminology and my lack of lit crit background.

I thin one of the problems that you and Elis are running into here (and I'm using you two as emblamatic of New Who and Old Who fans) is that I do think you have a point because based onmy reading of the show, RTD, for whatever situation, did center Rose as the narrator of both her story and the Doctor's. He is still the protagonist, and drives the story (Rose wouldn't be there without him, etc), but especially by the end of S1, he was a half step off to the side. And based on what I've seen of Old Who, that's an unusual structure for the Doctor and Companion as protagonist and narrator.

But I do agree with Elis that canonically, Rose was a chapter in the Doctor's story, and bringing her back permanently would unbalance the Doctor's place as the protagonist. It would become Rose's story, not the Doctor's.

[splash-the-cat.livejournal.com]

In Army of Ghosts (or was it Doomsday – maybe both) there were her infamous words of "this is the last story I'll ever tell."

Also, Rose in those framing clips is an unreliable narrator. I her eyes her story is over - she's lost the Doctor, she's trapped on Earth. So certainly she'd see what happened as a death, and the end of the story of her life. In her mind, her life with the Doctor was her story (look at how she talked about staying with him forever, how her life hadn't started until she met him, etc. and so on). And yes, that's melodramatic, but she's 19 (which is something I thnk a LOT of people keep forgetting) and suddenly having the door to every possible avenue of excitement and adventure (and on a grand romance, if you ship the two), the door to what she thought of as her real life, slammed shut (literally, even)...

We the viewer know that of course she has plenty of stories left to tell. That's even made explicit when she tells the Doctor she's joined alternate Torchwood. But for Rose, in her grief, in her youthful myopathy of her situation, her story is ended, because in her mind, she never intended her time with the Doctor to be a chapter, but the whole book.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I started cutting and pasting, but I was cutting and pasting the whole thing. Heh.

Yes, totally! I completely blanked on the fact that her words were also very much in a context of time. She was standing on the beach, thinking her life was basically over. Like you said, they were her melodramatic words at this loss.

[tallisen.livejournal.com]

You know what I thought while reading this? When you mentioned maybe there's another time lord out there?

Well... here's a what-if thought... Badwolf!Rose brought Jack back to life, and now he can't die.

Maybe she inadvertantly created a new timelord? Not the same as the Doctor, of course. He's died a couple times, and keeps coming back...

Anywhoo that's what I'm thinking.

But I really don't remember where Badwolf was mentioned in Torchwood. I don't think I ever caught it. Probably went right under my radar.

I am however in agreement that Rose's final story is hardly the Doctor Who finale. That's just ridiculous. There's more to her life than that. And more to the Doctor's life too.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Maybe she inadvertantly created a new timelord? Not the same as the Doctor, of course. He's died a couple times, and keeps coming back...

Well, don't know you could actually call that a "Time Lord" though, since Time Lords are very different from humans beyond the regeneration/don't die thing. But a new "being" - could easily be!

But I really don't remember where Badwolf was mentioned in Torchwood. I don't think I ever caught it. Probably went right under my radar.

It was in graffiti. Ta da! :)

http://community.livejournal.com/torch_wood/589691.html?thread=7446139#t7446139

I am however in agreement that Rose's final story is hardly the Doctor Who finale. That's just ridiculous. There's more to her life than that. And more to the Doctor's life too.

I just hope we'll get to see their lives coming back together. :)

[tallisen.livejournal.com]

Oooh thank you for the link! Silly me. Must keep my eyes pealed for these sort of things. :D