Step 1: Get sent something. Step 2: *scratch head* Step 3: Yap on and on about it. Step 4: Repeat

[mrv3000]

Yeah, I'm hearing of flailing going on after a certain something in Torchwood that relates to Doctor Who. And I then wonder, "well, what's so bad about...?" And *then* I start typing as I can't help myself.



Bad Wolf, baby!

Let me first say I'm not even 100% convinced that the appearance of "Bad Wolf" means Rose will return. I mean, I'd like it to, I won't lie, but that reference behind Jack could easily be a reference to his immortality and nothing more. Since it happened, you know, during the events of/by BadWolf!Rose. And who knows - perhaps BadWolf!Rose wanted the Doctor to have a hand to hold at this point in his life, and who better than someone immortal and someone he likes? And so the reference was that she wanted to bring them together, and that's why she kept him alive for a reason, as Jack said. Or something. Yeah, that's not very strong, is it?

I'm almost hesitant to throw this out there because it's such a "what if" thing. But apparently people have started expounding on the "what if" and so whatever. Again, I don't go looking for this stuff, but instead get emails from people. (Who seem to be very aware that it only angries up the blood. *eyes*)

But one issue that seems to keep popping up in the hand-wringing of the possibility of Rose's return is "Rose's story has already been told, dammit!" I'm gonna need a little help on this one to get me there.

In Army of Ghosts (or was it Doomsday – maybe both) there were her infamous words of "this is the last story I'll ever tell." Well, that served its purpose as a dramatic device, which was meant to mislead people into thinking that she might die by the end. But that's pretty much all you can put on it – a device, since even if she never comes back, it obviously won't be the last story she will ever tell. The "story" of her life will go on, one way or another. And since I'm talking external at the moment, I think both RTD and BP have said statements in effect of "never say never/anything can happen in sci-fi." So from a writing/show standpoint, I just don't think this can be ruled out just from the AoG words.

But now taking a look at the internal context of Rose's "story." A story of Rose's life has been told, but can you really say that her story in completion has been told? She ended up being ripped away from the one place she truly wanted to be in one of the most unresolved departures I've ever seen on TV. I guess one argument for this is that Rose needed to "grow up" and "go home," and in that way, her story has been told. Again, I'm gonna need a little help getting to how being sucked into an AU is "going home" and/or "growing up." (Not that I don't have huge problems with this Rose-growing-up/go-home concept at a fundamental level, but that would be another 10 pages right there.)

You know, one thing I never seem to hear in all this never-ending Rose debate, is what about the Doctor? No one ever really seems to focus on him for some reason, and I just don't get that. What about the Doctor's story? To me, The Runaway Bride pointed out that the Doctor needs something in his life beyond the endless travel. And yeah, that's a huge departure from Classic Who, where he was pleased as punch to be this eccentric nomad and that's it. No, I do not think he's suddenly itching to settle down with a mortgage. He loves his life/lifestyle and can't picture him ever leaving the TARDIS. But he also needs something more, which is now part of his story. And Rose really is that something more to him. There's probably that knee-jerk in some circles of, "oh God, not her," but fools in love and all that. She makes him profoundly happy - with her he's loved, accepted, belongs, is balanced, has a best friend who loves his life as much as he does, and probably several other reasons all his own. But if he can't have Rose back in his life, then I'm really hoping the Face of Boe's secret is a long lost kid (a concept I loathed pre-The Runaway Bride) or another Time Lord's out there or something. Because to me, his story right now is about needing Rose, but he may have to settle for something else, sadly.

So, no. I do not think that Rose's story has been completely told, nor do I think the story of the Doctor and Rose has been completely told. However, it might be, as far as what we actually get on screen – who knows what this "Bad Wolf" will really end up meaning. And then I guess we gotta stick with fic.

I just ask one thing – if we do see Rose at the end of S3, please let it be that BP has signed on for S4 as I seriously could not take yet another Doomsday separation, even if it came in the form of "she's better off where she is." That's fine for Rose and all, but yet another sledgehammer to the Doctor. I rather like the Doctor, and am getting sick of him getting beaten up. So if the plan is to discover Rose's fantastic AU life where she decides to stay in the AU, or she's too old to go back with him or something, I would MUCH rather they not have Rose reappear at all. *pats the Doctor*

Heh. There are still going to be wars and debates over Rose 30 years from now, aren't there? Fandom, you so crazy.

Comments

[splash-the-cat.livejournal.com]

And honestly, I think we're getting into the territory of what we're watching the show for - you're watching for the Doctor/Rose, and I'm watching for the Doctor's story. And I think that where a lot of the fundamental disagreement is coming from on this - it's like people who watch SG-1 for the Sam/Jack vs. the noromos. We're kind of not watching the same show on some level.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

There's probably a lot of that going on, I'll admit. The concept of the Doctor constantly cycling through people so he can have "chapters" in his life? Truly has little appeal. And I know that's taboo in Doctor Who. I'm supposed to love the Doctor and only the Doctor. Oh, I may have fondness for someone else, but I'm not supposed to be focused on anything or anyone else. *Believe me* I've heard this all before.

But seriously, I still would view Rose's return as a continuation instead of restart. I just absolutely 100% do not see how it couldn't be. I'm not trying to be difficult or to prove my point because I want D/R forever and ever. I just do not get it.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

There's probably a lot of that going on, I'll admit. The concept of the Doctor constantly cycling through people so he can have "chapters" in his life? Truly has little appeal.

Can't stop thinking about this, for which I BLAME JULIE.

New Who added an entirely new element to Doctor Who in that the Doctor has...emotions! Heh. We've already seen at times this loneliness in him. Even the term "The Lonely God" is being used now about him.

Screw Rose right now. This old formula of a constant rotation of people, with no lasting connections, I do not see (just within the context of his character) how that will be enough for him. They even said it in The Runaway Bride when the Doctor said he didn't need anybody. Donna immediately shot back "I think you do." Which is why if Rose never comes back, I'm *really* now hoping he's got a long-lost kid or something. Because the old formula, with the constant goodbyes, would slowly kill him in the context of New Who.

And I HATE the long-lost kid idea. HATE. But it's better than having him wander around, forever alone. That's probably is fundamentally what drives me bats about the DW credo "companions change." And hell, the "Lonely God" was *their* invention, not mine. They didn't have to go that route in New Who, but they did.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Maybe this is why no one ever leaves me alone in the chat room - 30 pages of monologued discussion later...

[(Anonymous)]

This old formula of a constant rotation of people, with no lasting connections, I do not see (just within the context of his character) how that will be enough for him.

I'm completely with you on that. Galloping through time and space, playing the hero to an endless line of people with no one and nothing permanent in his life-that may have satisfied him at one point, but I just don't see it doing that anymore. Especially after losing his entire planet. There's just no one but him any longer and the Doctor I saw in Runaway Bride...is tired of that. I think some people romanticize the idea of the lonely god far too much. Yeah, there's appeal to it, but it's lonely. It's sad. No one should have to be alone forever.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Yeah. And that's what kills me since I hear one thing about structure and formula and how this needs to fit Old Who, but yet within the context of the story that's being told, I'm finding it all very unpalatable.

[(Anonymous)]

Totally unpalatable. The show IS different in many ways. They've let the Doctor be real-be a person, have feelings in way they didn't always with the old show. I'd hate to see them junk all that and act like he doesn't care that he's perpetually alone. No, he's not human, but that doesn't equate to not needing emotional ties. They've written him in the past two seasons to be someone who does need them and want them.

[marble-rose.livejournal.com]

Not only is it lonely and sad, but it's also very destructive as we've seen in TRB and FoB. He's becoming cynical...and a bit sadistic. And while "The Lonely God" is an interesting idea that I like having explored, it's actually really awful, especially now that the Doctor is really buying into it. And I think RTD agrees.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

*nods* S3 is showing us how very wretched this kind of existence is for him. And it all comes down to him either being simply a "story" or "real."

[marble-rose.livejournal.com]

I'm so with you on the companions=chapters. Really, I love this show so much, but I hate all the fandom politics. I lot of people view this show through some mystical framework that I just don't understand.

Because of the way season three is developing, from a narrative point of view, it makes perfect sense for Rose to come back. It's just...that's who Rose is. She's the companion who comes back to him. That's this huge theme of her character. And with his steady descent into darkness (doesn't that sound ominous) this season, he needs someone to pull him out of it, to save him, to heal him. Once again, that's Rose's role in his life. That's what she does. Do I think that will happen? I don't want to get my hopes up.

But you know that feeling of inevitability you get when you're reading a book or watching a movie? You watch as the plot unfolds, and you can sense the direction in which it's moving? That's the vibe I'm getting concerning a reunion, or at least a resolution to their story. Though this could be completely debunked later.

The big problem with the Doctor right now is that he's weary, and he's lost his faith. If he's ever going to get out of this funk, something has to happen to restore that faith. And the embodiment of his faith is? Rose. It's been pointed out time and time again. She's what he believes in, she's what keeps him fighting, she's his light in the dark. So back to that whole narrative point of view, unless there's some sort of transference of his faith, the answer is Rose.

Hold on a minute while I check outside my window for psychotic Who fen with pitchforks.

Anyway, like you, I think Rose's return would mark a continuation instead of a restart. They already completely changed the formula by making her the narrator much of the time. But there are those Who politics to consider, and I don't know how much more RTD would be willing to push the envelope on the Doctor/Rose story. And even if you do buy into the whole "chapter" idea, I'd still argue that Rose's isn't finished. Doomsday didn't give any closure whatsoever. It could have. We had Rose narrating about being separated from the Doctor; it would've been easy for RTD to have shown her some time after the separation, looking back on her time with Doctor with fondness. The ending would've been bittersweet, but still somehow satisfying.

But no. Instead we get the angstiest ending that's ever angst'd. Through two seasons we watched this love story develop; little by little we see the Doctor giving in to his feelings, a declaration constantly on the tip of his tongue. Then, at the very end, the affirmation of his feelings everything's been building toward, his one last chance to let her know...and he's cut off. If he'd been able to say it, we'd still have our satisfying, though still painful ending. But he didn't get it out, and for that, their story will always feel unfinished...unless there's some sort of resolution, which still brings me to the idea of Rose somehow being linked to restoring his faith.

But then there are all those pesky external factors to consider *pout*

I really have to stop discussing all this stuff so much with Rae. She makes it almost impossible not to hope...and hope is scary, especially if season three is what RTD considers to be hope.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

She's the companion who comes back to him. That's this huge theme of her character.

That's true.

Once again, that's Rose's role in his life. That's what she does. Do I think that will happen? I don't want to get my hopes up.

Yup. I completely agree. The character of Rose has been set up as this person to the Doctor. She's the "one thing" he believes in. I know people wanted that to be about all companions when he said it there, but 42 showed us otherwise.

The big problem with the Doctor right now is that he's weary, and he's lost his faith. If he's ever going to get out of this funk, something has to happen to restore that faith. And the embodiment of his faith is? Rose. It's been pointed out time and time again. She's what he believes in, she's what keeps him fighting, she's his light in the dark. So back to that whole narrative point of view, unless there's some sort of transference of his faith, the answer is Rose.

Yup. So much in S1 and S2 has pointed to exactly this.

Hold on a minute while I check outside my window for psychotic Who fen with pitchforks.

I've gotten past the point of truly caring. People will scream "Mary Sue!!!!" at the top of their lungs about Rose, but whatever. They just can't stand the character and can't stand that the Doctor fell in love with someone who wasn't them or their companion of choice.

Anyway, like you, I think Rose's return would mark a continuation instead of a restart. They already completely changed the formula by making her the narrator much of the time.

Well, especially after all we've seen in S3, it *would* be a continuation instead of a restart. This whole series has been a continuation of *their* story even though one of them is gone.

But then there are all those pesky external factors to consider *pout*

I know. *shakes fist at BP*

[marble-rose.livejournal.com]

I know people wanted that to be about all companions when he said it there, but 42 showed us otherwise.

*headdesk* People really will fanwank anything, won't they? How much more specific could he have been? On some forum (don't even ask me which one), someone mentioned something about Rose symbolising a goddess figure. And the wolves pounced, raging and snarling about why that was wrong.

Dear Rose-haters,

On the subject of Mary Sues: This word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

That is all.


They just can't stand the character and can't stand that the Doctor fell in love with someone who wasn't them or their companion of choice.

*nods* I've never seen any fandom so threatened by a character. And I hate the idea that the Doctor loving Rose somehow invalidates his other companions. Didn't School Reunion show is that this is not the case?