mrv3000 | (no subject)

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doctor who,
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It's been over 24 hours since a Doctor Who-related post! I'm getting the shakes, so I had to post.

You know, this makes me pleased as all get out, because online fandom IS NUTS and shouldn't be paid attention to. Apparently RTD completely ignores the online fans. You listening, Ron? Of *course* you're listening. *waves*

Everything creates uproar in the Doctor Who online community. Fans spend hours logging what's right - and what's wrong - with Davies's doctor. He just ignores them. "In the community of sci-fi shows, I think we're the only one that actively ignores its online fanbase. American shows seem to court them, or pretend that they do. That way lies madness. I can't think of a show that's improved its quality, or its ratings, by doing it. It's like going in search of a massively biased focus group - why would anyone do that?"

Quote snagged from

miladyhawke from this article, which I'll confess I barely skimmed since my mind isn't capable of paying attention right now. Think it has some mild S3 babblings.

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Oh, that's good! I wish some other PTB would follow suit. When the fans start driving them crazy and vice versa, no one's happy.

Exactly. And I really see no reason for the two to mix in the first place anyway. Fandom is a fan's world where we can bitch and whine and squee and cheer. Here the loudest people often win, and so never mind the entire fan base of the show, what sometimes floats to the top doesn't even represent the majority of the *online* fan base.

My brain is *really* fuzzy right now, but what I think I was trying to say was that all this fic and meta stuff is for *us* and not them. I'm not exactly sure *why* I like this separation since you'd think with the storytelling process I'd want it to be more organic and a collective, but...

I don't know. Someone like

splash_the_cat or

nandamai could explain it. If they agreed, that is.

Yes, Russell. Do not listen to us, for we are all INSANE. We're just cracked in different ways. I always think it's funny when online fans are all 'well, everyone thinks blah blah.' Welll...not really. My pet example is how everyone knows that the viewing audience turned against Rose's characterization in the second season. Only if everyone means 'everyone I personally know online'(well, not ME, but you know what I mean).

Fandom is fun because you can run amok and parse out every. possible. meaning. known to man or envision all kinds of scenarios that will never happen on the show. The *actual show* provides all the structure to hang the meta and fic and squee on. When they mix, it gets squirrelly. Or something.

Yes, Russell. Do not listen to us, for we are all INSANE. We're just cracked in different ways.

Yup! :D

I always think it's funny when online fans are all 'well, everyone thinks blah blah.' Welll...not really. My pet example is how everyone knows that the viewing audience turned against Rose's characterization in the second season. Only if everyone means 'everyone I personally know online'(well, not ME, but you know what I mean).

*Exactly.*

(And that is a fun one since I immediately do a "Riiiiiight. And that's exactly why Doctor Who Magazine readers named Ten and Rose fav Doctor and Companion of all time - "everyone" turned against her characterization.")

Fandom is fun because you can run amok and parse out every. possible. meaning. known to man or envision all kinds of scenarios that will never happen on the show. The *actual show* provides all the structure to hang the meta and fic and squee on. When they mix, it gets squirrelly. Or something.

*nods* That's way better than the way I put it. I kept trying to think of *something* to compare it to, but it wasn't working. Mixing oil and water? Not good enough. Mixing space pirates and 18th century nuns? Probably getting closer, but unfortunately there may exist actual Doctor Who canon like that....

OMG psychic minds. I put that quote up in my LJ too. I was giving the man a standing O.

I know you “barely skimmed” the article, but you might find this part interesting:

‘I keep reading about how I introduced emotion,’ says Davies. ‘How ridiculous. I’ve introduced emotion? Doctor Who is about two opposites travelling together: their friendship and their love for each other. An alien and a human. He’s got a Tardis; she’s got a family, and a mother and a boyfriend, which is an innovation for Doctor Who - but not for me. It’s the only way you can write it now. The more polarised, the better.’ He’s 900. She’s 19. How much more polar can you get?’

So we clearly weren’t imagining Rose’s importance to the story. (Plus, there’s the fact that he’s still talking about Rose. Series 3 starts in a couple of weeks—shouldn’t he be talking about Martha and how wonderful she is? But he might be avoiding that, just because we haven’t met her yet.)

I especially love the part about going in search of a massively biased focus group, because often what rises to the surface are the *loudest* people, like I mentioned above. And loudest very often tends to represent the most extreme views as opposed to the average online fan.

(And this is weird - I see your post when I go to your journal, but it didn't show up last night when I was going through my flist. Wonder what else I've missed from my flist...)

Huh that is odd. And I so agree. I call them the loud minority. They make a lot of noise, but do not necessarily represent the facts. I wouldn't want him to pander to shippers either.

Heh. I'm reading between the lines of that, and it's saying to me "Know what? I'm running this show, so everyone else can go pound sand." *snickers*

So we clearly weren’t imagining Rose’s importance to the story.

Oh, no way. Everything from canon to outside interviews and quotes (even in the S2 DVD insert), that the Doctor and Rose fell in love with each other wasn't fan wishful thinking.

(Plus, there’s the fact that he’s still talking about Rose. Series 3 starts in a couple of weeks—shouldn’t he be talking about Martha and how wonderful she is? But he might be avoiding that, just because we haven’t met her yet.)

Well, to be fair, just from skimming, the article seemed to have more to do with the contentions certain quarters of the online fandom have had with RTD's handling of the show. Don't know that there's been much about Martha, especially since we haven't seen her yet.

But it *is* nice to still hear him talking about Rose. And I hope she'll *still* be important to the story down the road. *crosses fingers*

I wouldn't want him to pander to shippers either.

Nooooo. I wouldn't have really been all that into a straight romance. Or if it had gotten heavy into the melodrama. I loved it exactly the way it was done - the majority being this gen sci-fi story, but with sides of ship.

Ohhh I just read on my flist that parts of a recent interview with RTD (I am presuming it is this one) didn't make it into the final copy. Apparently at one point he talked about the subtlety of the Doctor/Rose relationship and how he laughs when he gets letters complaining about it.

Anyone have info about this?

Wonder how they got their hands on the interview if it wasn't published... *is suspicious*

That way lies madness.

*snort* So true.

I just read the whole interview. I love this man. I am hoping someone links the parts that didn't get in.

Oh, and...

their friendship and their love for each other.

Am soooo pleased RTD specifically mentions both, since that's exactly the way I've been seeing S1 and S2 - it wasn't just about being in love, or just about being friends. Both were happening, and I loved it! Why's it always have to be one or the other?

Totally. :D

Now if only he'd dial down what he thinks is "subtle foreshadowing," I'd probably construct a potato shrine. ;)

The comment about the subtlety(or not) of the Doctor/Rose relationship is here, about halfway down the page.

Thanks! Great to see you in Michelle's LJ. She is the bestest and her flist is awesome. I want to hug them all.

Heh. Reminds of his comments about how killing off Rose was NEVER an option and he has NO IDEA why fans thought he would do that. Umm...Rose's voiceover? Next to last episode? Ring a bell? I'm sure you remember it, RTD. Maybe you need to do a little more script-glancing, in that case.

No matter how much I disagree with any choice he might make, I hope he sticks to his guns on this one forever. I've seen the madness afflict too many shows!

He'll probably get vilified for it as much as Joe Malozzi. I hope he enjoys it half as much. ;->

Oh, no way. Everything from canon to outside interviews and quotes (even in the S2 DVD insert), that the Doctor and Rose fell in love with each other wasn't fan wishful thinking.

Um. Not actually what I meant? Not that I disagree, just… I’m trying to think how to explain.

Well, to be fair, just from skimming, the article seemed to have more to do with the contentions certain quarters of the online fandom have had with RTD’s handling of the show. Don’t know that there’s been much about Martha, especially since we haven’t seen her yet.

That makes sense.

But it *is* nice to still hear him talking about Rose. And I hope she’ll *still* be important to the story down the road. *crosses fingers*

Amen to that. She was so central to the story I thought they were telling that I’m still trying to figure out how they’ll be able to tell it without her.

Okay, here goes nothing. I think there are actually two different arguments that both start with the question “How important was Rose?” First, there’s the question of what exactly Rose’s role in the story was—heroine or sidekick? Second, there’s the question of what exactly Rose’s relationship with the Doctor was—friendship or romance? (Well, and third, there’s the question of whether we should be using the word “was.”)

It’s entirely possible to believe that Rose was just another Companion, and that she and the Doctor were shagging off-screen. It’s also possible to believe that Rose and the Doctor were equally important to the story, and that they haven’t yet shared a kiss that she remembers.

Which is a very long-winded way of saying “I’m a shipper, but I wasn’t actually talking about the ship,” if that makes any sense.

*SNORTS*

Ohhhhhhhh. I gotcha now.

I totally believe Rose was extremely important to the story, since much of it, especially in the beginning, was told from her point of view. As the audience, we're meant to identify with her. (Well, that probably wouldn't work as well with pre-existing DW fans, since they'll identify with the Doctor no matter how it's written.)

I still like this definition when thinking about the Doctor and Rose.

http://www.writersstore.com/article.php?articles_id=199

To me in *New Who*, the Doctor was the "Protagonist" and Rose was the "Main Character," and not really a sidekick. She had her sidekick moments, but was more than that.

No matter how much I disagree with any choice he might make, I hope he sticks to his guns on this one forever. I've seen the madness afflict too many shows!

*nods* (Even though I'm grousing about some S3 spoilers right now.)

He'll probably get vilified for it as much as Joe Malozzi. I hope he enjoys it half as much. ;->

Did Joe drop out of fandom finally?

Did Joe drop out of fandom finally?

Not that I know of, but he knows how to play there and then go back to work and tell the story he wants to tell. And continue to be amused instead of bothered that certain people are convinced that he's telling it that way for the express purpose of depriving them of what they want, and not just because it's the way it goes in his head.

Most people couldn't pull that off, so as a rule it's definitely wiser for PTBs to Just Say No.

I totally believe Rose was extremely important to the story, since much of it, especially in the beginning, was told from her point of view.

And then there’s the whole “turned into a goddess” thing. I was arguing that she was the heroine right up until we got the news that she was leaving. Now I’m just confused.

I still like this definition when thinking about the Doctor and Rose.

It’s always good to define your terms. :-) For what it’s worth, the ones I was using (before “Doomsday”) are here.

I thought Rose and the Doctor were on separate (but parallel) journeys, so I saw them both as heroes. And, at the same time, I saw the Doctor as Rose’s mentor, and her as his. And now… well, now I have no idea.

I thought Rose and the Doctor were on separate (but parallel) journeys, so I saw them both as heroes. And, at the same time, I saw the Doctor as Rose’s mentor, and her as his. And now… well, now I have no idea.

Oh, interesting. They did both have their own journeys that ended up merging and finally splitting off. And they *definitely* both learned from each other, although not sure how much actually stuck with the Doctor, since he's up to his old ways in The Runaway Bride.

But it will be interesting to see where it goes from there. (If I'm watching, that is. Heh heh.)

But it will be interesting to see where it goes from there. (If I’m watching, that is. Heh heh.)

That’s what I keep telling myself. Part of me just wants to say, “Wake me up when Rose gets back,” and then go take a nap, fannishly speaking, but… *dithers*

Mwah. Totally.

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on a slightly insane tangent…

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