mrv3000 | More Martha

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More Martha

This is an addendum to my Martha post last week.

I'm feeling the need to pick at how TPTB have handled Martha's unrequited love. And...it's not good. I seriously think I could have been sympathetic to Martha if they'd wanted to portray it that way. However, the unrequited love was coupled *very* closely with this overshadowing jealousy of the ghost of Rose. Martha got incensed very quickly about it, and just has never stopped being offended that the whole Rose thing even existed. (I'm totally reminded of that Futurama quote: "You lived before you met me?!" "Yeah, lots of people did." "Really?!")

Now I know that many probably liked Martha's comments in Utopia, since they themselves are tired of the Rose references - Martha gives them a voice. And the Doctor's supposed to move on, after all. (But not too sure New Who's terribly interested in that "move on" concept, what with Jack waiting 100+ years just to try and find the Doctor.)

But really, to me Martha's comments come off as petty and a bit...mad. Take a look.

Smith & Jones: The Doctor mentions he traveled with someone named Rose who is now happy with her family.

The Shakespeare Code: After knowing Martha a sum total of a day, the Doctor mentions Rose to her, talking about thinking she'd know the answer to the puzzle Martha wasn't even trying to help him solve.

Since then, the Doctor has not brought up Rose to Martha even once. Next reference Martha brought her up (Gridlock), to which she immediately got snitty. And I always subtext the Doctor's reaction there as, "Holy crap. I am totally never bringing up Rose to you again." And he hasn't. Other references have had other people always the ones to bring her up first - John Smith, Jack and even Martha herself.

Martha is right in thinking that the Doctor's hearts are most definitely elsewhere. But she's also built up this whole reality for herself where the ghost of Rose is this other woman who's stealing her man. That if the memory of Rose wasn't around, *then* the Doctor would love her. And this is the part that completely alludes me. Martha's off in this *very* weird place. The Doctor doesn't love Martha like that, and Martha *knows* he doesn't love her like that. But yet she immediately goes into bitch-mode the second Rose gets mentioned. Maybe

butterfly is right - Martha's got issues involving her mother, her dad, and her dad's blonde girlfriend. Of course, we don't know since they've been loving keeping us in the dark as far as Martha motivation goes this series.

But I wonder if Martha's stopped to consider that even if Rose had never existed, perhaps the Doctor *still* wouldn't fall madly in love with her. The Doctor's companion-stamp-of-approval isn't falling in love with them. Nor does he fall in love with people just because they're brave, or fearless or pretty. Of course, maybe it's just easier to blame Rose.

However, hopefully they've written it where Martha's beginning to see the light. (I know. I think I've said that after just about every episode this series.) But I keep thinking that she *could* be really good for the Doctor, once she's past the whole "love me" thing. Jack showed off an element that the Doctor needs in a companion. Oh sure, that brave, kick-ass pseudo-action-hero is fairly standard companion issue. But he really needs that "You're supposed to say you're sorry" and "Get your fingers out of the marmalade!" thing. He needs someone to point out the watches he can't see. And so far, because of her "I don't care if he ever looks at me because I love him to bits," Martha's been a Chantho to his Professor.

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I saw someone compare the whole situation to being like taking someone's place in an office and being told constantly of how wonderful that person was.

Well, one, it's not constantly, and two, it's hardly the same thing. Was it you, or maybe someone who commented to one of your posts (sorry, can't remember!) who said it's like telling someone whose girlfriend died to get over it already. Like people who lost theirs spouses should just get over it because someone else is in love with them? God.

However, the unrequited love was coupled *very* closely with this overshadowing jealousy of the ghost of Rose... "You lived before you met me?!" "Yeah, lots of people did." "Really?!"

I think that *is* a lot of the problem, thank you. Unrequited love is one thing, could have been sympathetic (not necessarily wise to give a character, but could be doable), but she's bitching about a character that the audience loves almost as much as the Doctor, and she just takes as fact that the Doctor was dumped, doesn't find out the circumstances (which even if it had been just a dumping, could still have been tragic that he shouldn't be expected to just fall in love with her right away) and that she might as well be dead regardless of how he tries to spin it for his own sanity.

Yes Rose had a bit of the "You lived before me?" attitude when meeting Sarah Jane but there were a *lot* of issues playing in that encounter, and she had more reason to be upset by that point in their relationship than Martha had to bitch by 'Gridlock,' *and* in the end she came to understand and accept it, in the space of...what a day or two or story time?

"Holy crap. I am totally never bringing up Rose to you again."

And it's not like he mentioned Rose all that often before (in the two days Martha had known him). That was really the point where I started saying "Either ask him about it (if he's talking about her all that much) or shut up about her" because if he was constantly comparing them I could understand her being pissed off, but by the looks of it, he's internalized his feelings after wishing she was there in TSC (which wasn't really about Martha and her unhelpful novice eye, he just missed Rose filling in his gaps).

I think part of my problem with Martha is that it isn't enough for her that he's friendly with her, treats her well, takes her to the furthest corners of the galaxy, and she gets to do all this with the guy she claims to love. He *must* return her love the way she wants him to, otherwise she thinks he doesn't care.

And the thing is, the DW team know how to tell a story of unrequited love where loving and being loved is enough even if it doesn't match, they did it with Mickey (to a lesser extent they did it with Jack). That's the kind of unrequited love that says "I love you, maybe you love me back maybe you don't; maybe you hurt me and maybe I need to give up thinking you will be in love with me, but I love you enough to still do what's right." And you know what? I care about Mickey, I wish Mickey could get his happy ending too; I'm glad it became something other than Rose, but I never doubted that he did love her. If Martha had had that attitude of doing what's right I probably would have sympathized with her more when the Doctor didn't even see her as she was just being there for him and loving him from afar.

The other advantage of that, it makes the unrequited love only part of her personality rather than her defining characteristic (at least I trust that it wouldn't, it wasn't for Jack, and by the end it wasn't for Mickey).

I saw someone compare the whole situation to being like taking someone's place in an office and being told constantly of how wonderful that person was.

Well, one, it's not constantly, and two, it's hardly the same thing.

No, it really isn't. And like I pointed out, ever since the Shakespeare Code, the Doctor's been keeping it to himself when around Martha. He couldn't help it if John Smith decided to write Doctor/Rose fic, or if Jack wanted answers about what happened to Rose and later to himself.

You know, maybe love *does* equal approval to Martha. (I'm just sort of rambling here.) Thank-yous and hugs aren't good enough - proper appreciation for what she's done must involve the romantic kind of love. Of course, then I'm back to my rant about love not being about entitlement... ARG! Dear PTB: Please give us insight, any sort of insight, into Martha's motivation.

Was it you, or maybe someone who commented to one of your posts (sorry, can't remember!) who said it's like telling someone whose girlfriend died to get over it already. Like people who lost theirs spouses should just get over it because someone else is in love with them? God.

It wasn't me, but I saw the comment. On the one hand, I could give Martha the fact that she didn't know it involved this not-wanted separation, thinking it was just two people who split up, but on the other hand, she never plunked down a chair like she did with the Time War either.

But in thinking about it, I'm more inclined to throw this at fandom rather than Martha. Well, we'll see if Martha *still* keeps at it after knowing what she now knows.

I saw someone compare the whole situation to being like taking someone's place in an office and being told constantly of how wonderful that person was.

Well, one, it's not constantly, and two, it's hardly the same thing.

At the *minimum* from Martha's perspective, she could think it was akin to having a friend move away and not being able to see any more. A friend you used to see every day and do everything together, it should have become clear to her fairly quickly that his companion is the only constant friend he has hopping from time to time (this year is also without the "home base" that they had with Jackie back home) and she knows he's lonely and that that probably means a lot to him.

So even taking out romantic attachment, I'd say he was entitled to miss Rose. Under those circumstances yes, maybe he should have been able to move on and focus on what he has rather than what used to be, but she assumes (not incorrectly) that there was a more romance type heartbreak involved in her being gone. Again, she doesn't know how or why or how long ago, she just gets pissy about it.

Even if he had been dumped, it might have happened recently for all she knows and after an intense (probably minimum) two year relationship does she expect him to forget and start again right away? Well, yes apparently she does, and it wasn't until Utopia that she could even use the fan whine of "That's what he always does, so why doesn't he now?"

But it wasn't even dumping, she practically died for as much as he can ever see her again or even know what she's doing. He says Rose is happy and with her family, but he doesn't know, he has to believe that for his own sanity I think, but she's lost. Again, if Martha had ever bothered to find out any of this I hope she would have been sympathetic, but even without knowing, she's not coming off as justified.

I think that *is* a lot of the problem, thank you. Unrequited love is one thing, could have been sympathetic (not necessarily wise to give a character, but could be doable),

I think could have been very sympathetic, if not for the claws.

but she's bitching about a character that the audience loves almost as much as the Doctor,

*This* is what I've always been sort of scratching my head about. Aside from a subset in fandom, Rose was a very popular, and loved, character. Not to mention a heartbreaking show departure. And to have her replacement do nothing but bitch at every mention of her name? How does this endear her to the audience when this show is supposedly about accepting change? I don't quite get it.

Yes Rose had a bit of the "You lived before me?" attitude when meeting Sarah Jane but there were a *lot* of issues playing in that encounter

Well, and also, Rose completely comes to terms with it by the end of that episode. She *got* that the Doctor had this past. And she not only became fine with it, she invited the past along with them at the end.

And it's not like he mentioned Rose all that often before (in the two days Martha had known him).

Exactly. She got two mentions from him and then she took of running with it.

He *must* return her love the way she wants him to, otherwise she thinks he doesn't care.

And here's where I think they could have written Martha's unrequited love a whole lot more sympathetically. You *did* get this sense of entitlement with her a few times. If you hadn't gotten the "I deserve this" or "He needs to take me to the stars now, like he promised," kind of stuff, I could have been way more sympathetic to her. But when people put on that entitlement shtick, I always have a "oh, whatever" response.

And you know what? I care about Mickey, I wish Mickey could get his happy ending too;

You're *absolutely* right. At first I was annoyed by Mickey (of course, part of that was the cheesy way they'd written him in the beginning), but he became so completely sympathetic. I mean, I was bitching at *Rose* in Boom Town. *That's* the way to write unrequited love.

If Martha had had that attitude of doing what's right I probably would have sympathized with her more when the Doctor didn't even see her as she was just being there for him and loving him from afar.

And that's another problem I have with all this. I just haven't seen where Martha's cared about or even *liked* most of who the Doctor is. She likes that he's hot, he's got a fantastic ship and that he saves the world. She's in love with the story of the romantic lost prince.

The motivation thing is definitely getting to me, too. I'm still having trouble with the "why?" of it all. Certainly, good looking man picks you and takes you flying around in his TARDIS, but it's not like Ten's exactly been a shining example of heroism this season. We know enough of the Doctor to sympathize with him, but WHY is Martha so in love with him? And on top of his darkness, he barely acknowledges her existence. He's often been snippy and short with her. And like you said, she KNOWS he's still in love with someone else. As someone about Martha's age, I just CAN'T sympathize with her because I just find it all so pathetic. (Though I'm mostly irritated with the writers, I think, for going and screwing up the male/female dynamic so badly when they did it so well with Rose.)

Not to mention, I get NO emotional bond between them. Nothing. Their entire relationship has felt so flat to me the whole season. I'm not sure if that's done on purpose or if it's the unrequited thing or the actors just not having much chemistry together. But meh. I got more from five minutes between Ten and Jack than I've gotten between Ten and Martha. So it's SO baffling to me that she's so obsessed with him. Why? Why? Why?

But I wonder if Martha's stopped to consider that even if Rose had never existed, perhaps the Doctor *still* wouldn't fall madly in love with her.

Yeah. But I bet you it's easier for her to justify her continued pining by blaming it all on Rose. Which... ooh. A character motivation that might make sense. Especially if Martha is used to being the center of attention in her family. If she can just help him move on from Rose, then maybe it would change their entire relationship? Which again, goes back to the whole idea that she's really in love with the fantasy anyway.

Not to mention, I get NO emotional bond between them. Nothing. Their entire relationship has felt so flat to me the whole season. I'm not sure if that's done on purpose or if it's the unrequited thing or the actors just not having much chemistry together.

Glad I'm not the only one finding a lack of chemistry. And something I've found interesting to watch is the Confidentials. I have yet to see David and Freema joking around together, let alone even look at each other, when they're not playing a scene. You'll see David chatting with crew, and he certainly has been joking around with John in this week's show, but not with his co-star. Maybe it's just the way the shows have been cut, but I just find it rather odd the way they are with each other offscreen, and I wonder if there's not something more behind it. From watching David's video diary on the series 2 DVDs, it's pretty obvious that he and Billy were very close.

I dunno, maybe I'm reading too much into it. And now I'm going to stop hijacking your comment. ;)

Certainly, good looking man picks you and takes you flying around in his TARDIS, but it's not like Ten's exactly been a shining example of heroism this season. We know enough of the Doctor to sympathize with him, but WHY is Martha so in love with him?

Snipped the rest of the paragraph, but replying to all. I just really have to put Martha's love in the "hero-worship" category, which I've metaed about...somewhere. And I'm feeling a bit too lazy to find at the moment. She luuuurves this romantic version of the Doctor - all the superhero stuff. But start getting into the person that he is, and she's really not all that interested. I just keep thinking about how pissed Martha was in Blink, and that the Doctor needed to get her back to flying among the stars NOW. She's interested in the Doctor when he's Superman, but when she has to get a crap job to support him? Not so much. And yeah, you could say that Martha was just not being a doormat there. But TARDIS life isn't all glamour - sometimes you get stuck dealing with a whole lot of crap.

Not to mention, I get NO emotional bond between them. Nothing. Their entire relationship has felt so flat to me the whole season. I'm not sure if that's done on purpose or if it's the unrequited thing or the actors just not having much chemistry together.

I think at least *part* of it is intentionally writing this disconnect between them in that they talk *at* each other. They don't really listen to what the other person's saying when they talk. Bed scene in Shakespeare Code, and then dropping off and agreeing to let Martha along, come to mind off the top of my head. Talk about out-and-out just not *listening* to what the other person is saying. And then aside from Martha sitting down and making the Doctor talk about the Time War, there really hasn't been anything from either of them where you see them caring much about each other's details. The Doctor *almost* seemed like he had a breakthrough in Gridlock by realizing he didn't really know Martha. But since then we just haven't seen any kind of real interest on either of their parts.

So it's SO baffling to me that she's so obsessed with him. Why? Why? Why?

I really am becoming more and more convinced that it's the superhero/god thing. She loves a god. And you can love a god without the god loving you back.

Yeah. But I bet you it's easier for her to justify her continued pining by blaming it all on Rose. Which... ooh. A character motivation that might make sense. Especially if Martha is used to being the center of attention in her family. If she can just help him move on from Rose, then maybe it would change their entire relationship? Which again, goes back to the whole idea that she's really in love with the fantasy anyway.

Hmm. Interesting. Could be that the shadow of Rose has kept her going in this department. Trying to prove herself to the Doctor so that maybe *then* he would love her. Hmm. Also makes you wonder if she'll jump ship once she decides this is futile.

Well, and also, Rose completely comes to terms with it by the end of that episode. She *got* that the Doctor had this past.

And suddenly I wonder how Martha would react to meeting Sarah Jane to find out that the Doctor had a *long* past. She's not only his rebound from Rose, she's the latest in a long line of companions who all have their own past with the Doctor. Jack isn't quite the same, because he's clearly connected to that Rose timeframe, which doesn't serve to enlighten about the length of his past. That was what Sarah represented to Rose, not just one companion, but all of them and all those years that he'd lived before and never talked about; to Martha, Rose is just Rose the one woman he has a past with that comes between her wuv for him and him returning it.

Also, does Martha even know how old he is? I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and say she's aware he's older than he looks, but beyond that?

But when people put on that entitlement shtick, I always have a "oh, whatever" response.

But at least if it was *acknowledged* it could be interesting. If we'd seen her complaining and realizing *why* she was interested in the Doctor or someone calling her on her behavior; it would have been a character arc, she could have grown from it as she accepted that she *wasn't* entitled to the Doctor's love. That's another part of the problem with Martha, it's as if her behavior happens in a vacuum.

I mean, I was bitching at *Rose* in Boom Town.

Right, and I completely believed in the Doctor/Rose relationship by then, but I still sympathized with Mickey and if love was a matter of deserving (as Martha fans try to say) then he deserved her to love him at least as much as the Doctor. What he certainly deserved was to be treated better, which I'd point out Rose acknowledged too.

I just haven't seen where Martha's cared about or even *liked* most of who the Doctor is. She likes that he's hot, he's got a fantastic ship and that he saves the world.

Yep. Don't suspect I could say it much better, sums up how I view her feeling for the Doctor just fine.

I haven't really been watching the Confidentials, so... thanks for that tidbit! I've been wondering. I mean, I don't like speculating too much on their personal lives, but it was fairly obvious that Billie and David were close and that it really, really translated onscreen.

Yeah, their personal lives are their own business, but you could just see how much Billie (can't believe I misspelled her name! ;P) and David enjoyed being around each other, while I'm not seeing that with David and Freema.

David and Freema... I don't know. Maybe it's on purpose. Maybe they've completely internalized the one-sidedness of their relationship. But I feel like I'd sympathize with Martha a LOT more if I saw more of a spark between them.

Oh yeah, totally.

I'm rewatching "Smith & Jones", and wow is Martha dense. The Doctor has more than made it clear that he's not interested in her, yet she still clings to the vain hope that he'll change his mind. I know I've had my moments of denseness about guys, but really, when someone stares me in the eye and tells me things like 'this means nothing', I frickin' well get the clue!

And her absolute calm during the whole ep still niggles at me. Not even a minor freak out. *grumps*

For me, it's the fact tat, as much as Martha claims to love the Doctor, she doesn't even follow up on the stuff that he does let slip about himself.

Now granted, it's been a while since I was out in the dating world, but I got around a fair bit in my younger days and that includes dating guys who had -- gasp! -- dated other women before me. And you know what? I wanted to know about their past relationships! I wanted to know the basics of how they met and how long they were together and how things ended. And even during those times when I was more interested in a guy than he was in me, I still wanted to know about the exes. So how in the world does Martha NOT dig for info about Rose? Especially given that she most likely assumes that Rose dumped him and broke his hearts? Because, let's face it, what woman in unrequited love doesn't want to be the one giving comfort to her crush and telling him how he's too good for the one who left him?

The other thing is that even apart from Rose, Martha doesn't seem to show that much interest in learning about the Doctor. The information was pouring out during Utopia, yet instead of calling him on it -- "Wait, what do you mean, Jack shouldn't recognize you? What new face?" -- she just lets it all slide!

True, she followed up -- and rightfully so -- about the abandonment issues while they were walking, but then when she was listening to Jack and the Doctor talk about Rose (not to mention parallel universes and Canary Wharf), she just turned away and said, "I don't understand most of what they're saying." Huh?? She couldn't possibly have meant that -- the words they were using weren't that big!

Was she trying to be polite to Chantho, covering the fact that they were talking about people Chantho didn't know? Or was she just refusing to acknowledge what they were saying, that Rose didn't leave, that she was trapped somewhere against her will, where even something so important as fixing Jack -- someone she clearly was very close to -- wasn't enough to find a way to her?

Because that, my friends, is huge, and if you are a girl with a mega-crush, your radar would be flaring big time at that nugget about the ex.

This was my first real glimpse of Martha. She did things that impressed me and I thought she worked well with Jack, but all that was overshadowed by her reaction to Rose. It was completely out of place. Rose reacted with jealousy toward SJ and it was understandable. She had been with the Doctor two years and did not know about prior companions or that they were often left behind. SJ stood up to her when her attitude got to be too much and guess what, Rose got over it. And they bonded. Rose made a catty remark about Lucy in AOS but that too blew over and she handled the Reinette situation with absolute maturity and grace. Martha needs to take a page from her book.

SJ stood up to her when her attitude got to be too much and guess what, Rose got over it.

In Rose's defense, Sarah Jane started it. *g* Rose was clearly upset when the Doctor came out holding another woman's hand -- her eyes went right to the hands -- but it was SJ that got off the first several digs. Her "Hiiiii..." was really snarky, then "You can tell you're getting older; your assistants are getting younger", and "Look at you, Tiger" -- both said to the Doctor, but clearly a dig at Rose. Then, when they were in the kitchen with the rats, Rose was the only one of the four of them who was trying to analyze the situation, when SJ came up with "They use them in Biology class, but maybe you haven't reached that point yet. How old are you, anyway?"

One could argue that it was actually Rose standing up to Sarah Jane -- Rose did go on the offensive later in the episode, when they were in the classroom together -- but Sarah Jane definitely got four solid digs in before Rose finally attacked back.

Heh you never have to defend Rose to me. I lov her more then I do the Doctor. :)

Looking back in 20-20 hindsight (without actually watching that episode again), I could see her crushing on him back then. But it all kind of mushroomed into something really...not good.

The other thing is that even apart from Rose, Martha doesn't seem to show that much interest in learning about the Doctor. The information was pouring out during Utopia, yet instead of calling him on it -- "Wait, what do you mean, Jack shouldn't recognize you? What new face?" -- she just lets it all slide!

Right. It's like you said - she hasn't been trying to find out about stuff. I thought back with Gridlock, that would be the tone of Martha - she'd plunk down a chair and demand answers when the Doctor was being dodgy about things. Or really even about basic things. But she just hasn't done that. She's kind of slipped into this mode where she's happy to just keep things on the surface. Maybe every time she did find something out about him, it just weirds her out, so she doesn't *want* to know it. Witness her 5-minute coma over discovering that the Doctor grew a new hand in the past. And when she said something like, "all this time and you're still full of surprises," I wanted to say, "Oh, honey. Someone could be with the Doctor 50 years and he'd still manage to freak them the hell out."

she just turned away and said, "I don't understand most of what they're saying." Huh?? She couldn't possibly have meant that -- the words they were using weren't that big!

Yeah, that line bugged me. Seriously, it was not that hard to follow. Okay, I could see her getting lost at the "time vortex," but the rest?

Because that, my friends, is huge, and if you are a girl with a mega-crush, your radar would be flaring big time at that nugget about the ex.

I know mine would be. :D

This was my first real glimpse of Martha. She did things that impressed me and I thought she worked well with Jack, but all that was overshadowed by her reaction to Rose.

You've basically summed up S3, less the Jack.

Right now I'm just feeling like the entire thread has been "My Twoo Wuv is pastede on yay!" In all honesty, I'm getting by through the less-than-satisfactory expedient of ignoring the comments and pouts completely.

90% of the time I have a perfectly good companion to watch and enjoy. Then there's this weird shit that just plain doesn't belong there and doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Bless you for trying. I've just given up. :-/

Well...I'm at the point of saying that the "twoo wuv" on this show is now not really "pastede on." Just every last thing, including S3 has been big, blinking arrows to me. And I'm past the point of caring if it's not Generally Accepted Who to be thinking like that.

But I've really tried with Martha - that 90% kept me going for 10 episodes. But it was Blink that finally made me have enough of that 10% of Martha. I'm sick of it. It's overshadowed her entire character for me. And if that makes me a batshipper hater (which *you* aren't saying), then so be it.

Well...I'm at the point of saying that the "twoo wuv" on this show is now not really "pastede on."

I think I didn't make that clear -- I mean those bits feel really tacked on to me with Martha specifically. I try to make it jell with the rest of her, and I can't. It just feels like she's saying it because the script says so.

What you've been metaing -- especially the hero-worship thing -- comes about as close as possible to making it seem like it actually belongs to her character, but it's still an awful lot of work.

I won't say it overshadows the rest of the character for me, but it sure makes it damned difficult to enjoy it. :-/ 'Swhy I've barely been mentioning her in my own posts.

That's it.

The Master needs to just rip open a huge gaping hole between universes, snatch Rose back, hold her hostage for the Doctor to rescue, have the Doctor rescue her, and she takes her rightful place back by his side.

Let's see how Martha handles *that*.

I think I didn't make that clear -- I mean those bits feel really tacked on to me with Martha specifically. I try to make it jell with the rest of her, and I can't. It just feels like she's saying it because the script says so.

Ohhhh. Gotcha. And I SO agree. I cannot agree strongly enough. If there were 100 levels of agreeing, I'd be at the top. :D

What you've been metaing -- especially the hero-worship thing -- comes about as close as possible to making it seem like it actually belongs to her character, but it's still an awful lot of work.

It IS. It really, really is way too much work to try and figure this out and to patch in the holes. And there are just so many holes with Martha when it comes to this element to her.

I won't say it overshadows the rest of the character for me, but it sure makes it damned difficult to enjoy it. :-/ 'Swhy I've barely been mentioning her in my own posts.

Unfortunately, I feel like they've not been giving us much else to cling to about Martha. Yeah, she makes a good companion and she can kick ass, as well as have her brilliant moments, but they've just not given us much about *her* to make us grab onto her. Her character moments seem to be composed mainly of these out-of-left-field "he's my everything" or "oh, she was BLONDE" moments.

ACK! *freaks out* I just don't want the Master anywhere near Rose! :D

Although...I would find it more than amusing to have Rose knee him. *snorts*

The thing that drives me crazy is that this show can deal with unrequited love in a way that doesn't make me want to pull my hair out. They did this with Mickey through both series one and two and, by the end, you sympathized with him and wanted good things to happen for him, even if it meant he wouldn't be with Rose in that way. Mickey annoyed the hell out of me when he was first introduced, but I came to understand his motivations and why he loved Rose so much, and thus, I learned to see his character as something more than "guy who loves Rose Tyler". He came into his own, (and ROTC/AOS is a great example of this), and so when he comes back at the end of series two, I was geniunely happy to see him. His relationship with Rose made sense and I liked that they could love each other in a different way that wasn't painful or contrived.

Whereas Martha, it seems, is completely defined by her unrequited love and her attempts to be connected to the Doctor. There's no reason for this, (except for angsty plot purposes, which really bugs me), and I really don't have any inclination to care what happens to her, (beyond worrying about her being tortured to death or something equally graphic, but that's just because I have issues with seeing that happen to characters on TV or in film).

And maybe it's just me, (and my natural nosiness), but I would totally be asking questions and trying to get the info from Jack about Rose, if I was in Martha's shoes. Even if she didn't claim to love him so much, as his companion, it's weird that she wouldn't be trying to find out more about him. But I guess that ties back into your comment about how she views the Doctor as a god and thus doesn't want any pesky flaws to mess with that image in her head.

I can just see it now:

Cracked-Out Squirrel Master: I'm the Master. You're now part of my evil plot to thwart The Doctor.

Rose: You're the what? Are you mental?

Mickey annoyed the hell out of me when he was first introduced, but I came to understand his motivations and why he loved Rose so much, and thus, I learned to see his character as something more than "guy who loves Rose Tyler". He came into his own, (and ROTC/AOS is a great example of this), and so when he comes back at the end of series two, I was geniunely happy to see him. His relationship with Rose made sense and I liked that they could love each other in a different way that wasn't painful or contrived.

Yes, exactly! In the beginning he was the guy who loves Rose, but they very quickly started developing him into really his own character. And I was happy to see him again in AoG! And I was impressed with the writing there that they were able to show a kind of love that wasn't the romantic kind. Mickey wanted to protect Rose, but it wasn't that he was trying to win her back. His "yeah, tell me about it" about the Dalek's comment about Rose's heart rate increasing when seeing the Doctor was funny instead of acerbic.

Whereas Martha, it seems, is completely defined by her unrequited love and her attempts to be connected to the Doctor. There's no reason for this, (except for angsty plot purposes, which really bugs me), and I really don't have any inclination to care what happens to her, (beyond worrying about her being tortured to death or something equally graphic, but that's just because I have issues with seeing that happen to characters on TV or in film).

Yeah, it's been so hard for me to buy this in Martha. But I guess this is just the way they've written how people generally view the Doctor - a bit of that hero worship going on. Like Lynda in Bad Wolf/PotW. The Doctor saved Lynda and flirted with her, and this inspired complete devotion in Lynda.

And maybe it's just me, (and my natural nosiness), but I would totally be asking questions and trying to get the info from Jack about Rose, if I was in Martha's shoes. Even if she didn't claim to love him so much, as his companion, it's weird that she wouldn't be trying to find out more about him. But I guess that ties back into your comment about how she views the Doctor as a god and thus doesn't want any pesky flaws to mess with that image in her head.

I'm trying to remember if there was any time when Martha could have been pumping Jack for information. Oh, I guess they walked off to do something when the Doctor went and started playing with the tech stuff. But yeah, she's got someone there - start asking! First order of business: "What the *hell* did he mean by new face??"

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