Fandom

[mrv3000]

DW fandom has made me cranky of late. Some days it's just really hard to be zen about it, especially when the fandom group you're in is constantly accused of being these rabid, vicious fans -- but no one ever POINTS to any examples other than shippers having the gall to defend themselves in a D/R community or in their own journals, and I've yet to see a D/R shipper storm a Martha community -- while at the same time being kicked at, being called stupid and ignorant and 16-year-olds because what we ship is flat-out wrong. And lately, called even worse for continuing to ship a pairing no longer onscreen.

This essay is by someone who I don't think is a D/R shipper - I believe her main fandom is Harry Potter. But it has all caught her eye, and she directly addresses what's been going on in Who fandom. It's very well thought out.

"The great difference between voyages rests not with the ships, but with the people you meet on them."

A while back, a locked Doctor/Rose community was created because of people just outright tired of the berating. It seemed like a fantastic plan (it still is) - we're playing with our own ball in our own corner. No one bothers no one. But apparently that was also wrong in that the ones doing the kicking no longer had as much stuff to kick - and so now Doctor/Rose shippers are "anti-community" as well for locking stuff up. Which conveniently ignores the fact that they themselves are the reason we have gone elsewhere.

People don't like a pairing. That's fine. Or don't like a character. Also fine. But how that's somehow turned into it being acceptable to smash fans just for liking what they don't, I really will never understand.

Comments

[shaela]

DW fandom has made me cranky of late.

Just lately? Oh, honey. *hugs*

What I don’t get is how taking the author at his word makes us the nutters.

And how rooting for the hero to get a happy ending makes us the bad guys.

And how playing quietly in our own corner so we don’t bother anyone makes us “anti-community.”

Oh, well. I guess if it made sense, it wouldn’t be fandom.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Just lately? Oh, honey. *hugs*

Heh heh. Okay, DW fandom has always made me a bit nuts. For the longest time I had a natural flinch reaction to anyone who mentioned they'd watched Who prior to 2005. But lately is really when the cranky face has come out.

What I don’t get is how taking the author at his word makes us the nutters.

Heh. So often I have this, "We're the insane ones? No really, *we're* insane? How does this work?"

And how rooting for the hero to get a happy ending makes us the bad guys.

I've given up on trying to figure that one out long ago.

And how playing quietly in our own corner so we don’t bother anyone makes us “anti-community.”

Like the person mentioned in the essay, it seems we must do everything in public to give everyone a chance to smack it down - because it isn't valid unless it can be countered. Where it will be countered to show it isn't valid. Basically, they're pissed at the thought of people shipping without them getting to point out how wrong they are.

Oh, well. I guess if it made sense, it wouldn’t be fandom.

This is true.

[ivydoor.livejournal.com]

I've come to the conclusion that some people will not be happy until we swear our undying loyalty to their philosophy. It must suck for them, because I know I'll never see things the way they do. It must be hard going through life pinning all their happiness and contentment on the desire to have everyone be just like them because life doesn't work that way.

*sigh*

I honestly feel sorry for folks who feel that way. All that bile will eat them from the inside out. How anyone can keep up that sort of frenzy is beyond me. I can't fathom it. It must be miserable.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I just keep thinking that *they're* thinking if they smack us around hard enough, we'll eventually come to our senses and see things the "proper" way. And all the smacking around has really done has made us dig down even deeper.

And actually, in one instance has made me give up a classic fanon notion I'd gotten from reading opinions and so on when I first got into fandom. I was happily going along with this non-canon belief from Old Who, when someone pressed the issue, saying it was absolute fact. Someone else brought up canon points to the contrary. And now I think I'm dumping that old notion. Whoopsie. :D

[kammgirl.livejournal.com]

I have been dealing with it for so long as from the beginning I was called an AIM stalker (which is ironic as we see who is really doing the stalking,) batshit and everything else under the sun. Like many other Rose and D/R fans, I stepped back and stuck to LJs or places with like minded people. And still they follow us. Are they that bored with S3? Why do they care what shippers like and why is it such a sore point that we are in a locked comm? Do they need to see what we are posting that badly? Martha must truly be a disappointment to them if a year later they are still so obssessed with Rose and what her fans are doing.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I just do not understand why they're just so *obsessed* with what we do. Who cares what fans do? There're probably a group of fans that do nothing but make Doctor/Master ship vids to Celine Dion songs and meta all the day long about how they're soul-mates. Why should I care?

Okay, I take part of that back as I think I'd really want to see a Doctor/Master vid to a Celine Dion song. :D

They may shoot me dead, but the moral high ground is mine.

[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

Old Schoolers for Doctor/Rose Unite! *raises hand* Been watching for over 25 years, and to me, anyone who doesn't see that relationship is wearing blinders.

Oh, I love how one of the commenters tries to call carlanime out - they're not the author of the specific post that prompted carlanime's missive, but they're one of the biggest threadjackers/bullies over at b_i_b, and probably elsewhere as well. Anyone who says the slightest thing against Martha - even if it's to complain that writers did badly by her - is a vile racist. Because clearly she wasn't the victim of bad writing (or acting, depending on who you ask), but rather a conspiracy on the part of the white male writers to do... something. I don't know, they've never been coherent enough for me to figure out what the hell they were talking about.

Anyhoo, some of this crap starts to remind me of that fan-ranking thing from a few years back, where the ultimate object of scorn from other fans was Mary Sue K/S Slash Furry Fanfic Writers Where Kirk Is an Ocelot or Something. Many people will always try to find someone to whom they can feel 'superior,' and take their frustrations out on.

As someone once said, boys will be boys, but eventually someone has to stop them from taking the conch and killing Piggy. We shippers simply chose to take our red rubber ball to another playground, and that drives the bullies mad.

Re: They may shoot me dead, but the moral high ground is mine.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

And old schooler D/R fan! You're like finding a rare spotted two-beaked peacock in the desert! :D

I didn't read all the comments over in the post, and now I don't think I really care to go back to look...

But yeah, I think there is a lot of needing to feel superior going on. Me? I just wanna play.

[ex-spockette108.livejournal.com]

I have no words, really. Other than possibly "holy CRAP, DW fandom terrifies me."

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

It's a wee bit nuts, yeah. And I thought SG-1 fandom was bad. HA!! SG-1 fandom has *nothing* on DW fandom. HP still wins all, but DW fandom has got to be in the top 10 somewhere.

[avoria.livejournal.com]

Gosh, I am right there with you. It just gets silly when users get at fans because of their preferred ship/character.

As far as the "there is a locked comm, therefore it must be anti-community" argument goes... that's pretty much the same argument that goes 'you have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide'. You know, when new laws are brought out and such.

Obviously, by there being a comm that is flocked down, it must be because it's hiding from the fandom and is doing disreputable things. We must all be sitting around cauldrons being evil and plotting how to storm the pro-Martha communities and LJs... oh, wait...

I, like you, have yet to see any of the Rose/Doctor shippers rudely barge into a Martha/Doctor shipper's LJ and berate them. Yet I've had it happen to me, if only in mild form. And I happen to know a lot of people who ship both of them, and they're lovely.

It's just a pity you get the odd one who gives the whole lot of them a bad name. The same goes for the Rose-shippers, actually. It's always the ones who do crazy shit that isn't well thought of, that get assigned to the default Rose/Doctor or Martha/Doctor shipper roles. Never mind the fact that most of us are actually normal and just want to get on with our happiness without being disturbed.

Sheesh. I am sick and tired of fandom politics *headdesk*

Here endeth the rant. Sorry to do so in your journal *dusts*

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Obviously, by there being a comm that is flocked down, it must be because it's hiding from the fandom and is doing disreputable things.

Well, you know, there *is* that weekly ritual with the robes and candles and sheep that we do. The sage and citrus candles are great, but putting those sheep into robes is mighty wicked.

Never mind the fact that most of us are actually normal and just want to get on with our happiness without being disturbed.

Amen.

Sheesh. I am sick and tired of fandom politics *headdesk*

And it's just so hard to avoid.

Here endeth the rant. Sorry to do so in your journal *dusts*

Rant away! :D

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

It's always the ones who do crazy shit that isn't well thought of, that get assigned to the default Rose/Doctor or Martha/Doctor shipper roles.

Which is hair-pullingly ironic, considering how much we all hate that the general public gets their impression of fandom in general the same way. :-P

[marble-rose.livejournal.com]

:( *kicks fandom*

I'm so tired of this stuff. And I'm tired of being tired of it. I'm going to go look at your touch picspam to remind myself that, no, fandom doesn't always suck.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

*is tired of being tired of it too*

[miladyhawke.livejournal.com]

Hey, love - you got screencaps of the original rant, or know anybody who might? Somebody wants it for something ;)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I don't. :-\ Did it go bye-bye?

[teh-nos.livejournal.com]

I have...

[earenwe.livejournal.com]

After being involved with the HP fandom for years, I just give up on batting an eye at it, I suppose. There will always be people out there like this and if that's what they want to do with their time, so be it. From my involvement in the DW fandom so far I've had nothing but a positive experience; and who do I choose to discuss things with? The so-called "rabid" D/R fans who are nothing of the sort and who are, in fact, some of the nicest, well-spoken fans I've come across.

So let them wallow in their hatred and let you guys continue to be fantastic, which, really, isn't too difficult. :o)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I would imagine that coming from HP fandom, *everything* is cake now. :D Poor HP fandom.

Yeah, I know. Roll my eyes and move on. Sometimes I'm good at that, and other times not so much.

[teh-nos.livejournal.com]

But how that's somehow turned into it being acceptable to smash fans just for liking what they don't, I really will never understand.

Exhaustion. Sadness. The death of love.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I know New canon hasn't gone how you've wanted it to go. It's gotta be frustrating *and* painful to see what you like go in a different direction from personal canon. And metaing about *that* is fantastic. But the transference of the issues from TPTB/canon to the fans - it's just not right.

[katesutton.livejournal.com]

But how that's somehow turned into it being acceptable to smash fans just for liking what they don't, I really will never understand.

Oh, word. It's utterly baffling and is giving me a serious distaste for that part of the fandom. Since the shippiness was giving them such an ulcer-why do they care?-we went underground. Uh...not seeing the problem here.

Nor I am I seeing the problem, as msl03j said, in wanting the hero to be happy, if only for a little bit(insert 'the Doctor' OR 'Rose' in the hero spot. Cause while I think she actually has a much better chance of moving on and getting over it than he does, I want her to have what she wants as well).

And I don't see how romantic love diminishes the Doctor. He's not a god, although he wanders near the dividing line at times. He's always needed his companions to give him a more human aspect on things. Why does the specific turn of his relationship with Rose make one BAD and WRONG and the other necessary?

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Oh, word. It's utterly baffling and is giving me a serious distaste for that part of the fandom. Since the shippiness was giving them such an ulcer-why do they care?-we went underground. Uh...not seeing the problem here.

Yes! We're out of sight now! How can we offend?

Nor I am I seeing the problem, as msl03j said, in wanting the hero to be happy, if only for a little bit(insert 'the Doctor' OR 'Rose' in the hero spot. Cause while I think she actually has a much better chance of moving on and getting over it than he does, I want her to have what she wants as well).

Yeah, I'd like to see him happy as well. Especially after S3 - he's just so worn out and *tired* of it all now. He jumped at the chance to become the Master's jailer - which would have most likely killed his carefree wanderer life - out of duty, yes, but it would have given him a purpose to his life again. I think we've seen by now that the normal TARDIS-hopping life with the transient people - the formula we saw in the classic series - just isn't enough to fulfill him since the Time War.

And I don't see how romantic love diminishes the Doctor. He's not a god, although he wanders near the dividing line at times. He's always needed his companions to give him a more human aspect on things. Why does the specific turn of his relationship with Rose make one BAD and WRONG and the other necessary?

Well, you know I don't think it does. There are lots of different kinds of love. I love my friends and family all in completely different ways. Doesn't make any of them "better" than any others.

[starlightmoonla.livejournal.com]

This incessant "I'm right you're wrong" thing was one of the reasons why I backed off from the Harry Potter communities and had to start being selective about which sites I use to go and get my information. It's sad that it's now gotten so bad in DW fandom that I can actually see it and has gotten this bad.

I doubt they'll ever stop. They seem to find enjoyment and feelings of superiority just because they tell us that we're wrong and even some of the nastier things that I've heard/read in many LJ posts. Now I haven't been paying much attention but has/will the Donna fanbase get any of this bashing as well or will it be squarely on the D/R shippers shoulders to deal with? My thinking is that the D/R shippers will get the majority of the abuse but I wouldn't be surprised if other people got abused as well.

I wonder if they even understand that by taking the time to tell us that we're wrong they are taking the joy out of watching this show.

-__-" Here's hoping this post made some sense.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

This incessant "I'm right you're wrong" thing was one of the reasons why I backed off from the Harry Potter communities and had to start being selective about which sites I use to go and get my information. It's sad that it's now gotten so bad in DW fandom that I can actually see it and has gotten this bad.

Bleh. BLEH.

I doubt they'll ever stop. They seem to find enjoyment and feelings of superiority just because they tell us that we're wrong and even some of the nastier things that I've heard/read in many LJ posts. Now I haven't been paying much attention but has/will the Donna fanbase get any of this bashing as well or will it be squarely on the D/R shippers shoulders to deal with? My thinking is that the D/R shippers will get the majority of the abuse but I wouldn't be surprised if other people got abused as well.

I kinda have the feeling the Donna fanbase won't get in on this. Probably because we've all seen Donna before, and they're just not going to go the romantic route with her - even a one-sided route. At least, I don't *think* they'd do that. O_O But anyway, I suppose we could all be here next year as well, but this time discussing...age discrimination? The Doctor isn't into anyone older than 30? The dirty old man. ;)

I wonder if they even understand that by taking the time to tell us that we're wrong they are taking the joy out of watching this show.

Nah, because it gives them joy. Why should other fans be happy when they're miserable?

[azarsuerte.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't know if it helps but I don't think you're racist. *HUG* In fact, as someone who has in the past been hit with, "Well, you 'ship two white characters together instead of this white character with this minority character, so you're racist" before in another fandom, I personally think it takes *more* color-blindness/sexual-orientation-blindness/whatever to say "I 'ship these two characters because they have chemistry" than it does to say "Oh! This character is a minority/gay/discriminated against in some other way so therefore I must 'ship them with the nearest available character!"

Yes, there are some crazy D/R 'shippers out there. But there are equally crazy Sheppard/Weir and Harry/Hermione 'shippers out there, and those are 'ships *I* support. So I can sympathize because I'd feel the same way you do if I was being painted with the same brush as them. *HUG*

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't know if it helps but I don't think you're racist. *HUG*

*hugs you back*

You said this to me in your post, but I really do love that we have completely different takes on Rose and Martha, but that's OKAY. We're not out to convert each other. :D

In fact, as someone who has in the past been hit with, "Well, you 'ship two white characters together instead of this white character with this minority character, so you're racist" before in another fandom, I personally think it takes *more* color-blindness/sexual-orientation-blindness/whatever to say "I 'ship these two characters because they have chemistry" than it does to say "Oh! This character is a minority/gay/discriminated against in some other way so therefore I must 'ship them with the nearest available character!"

UGH. That's just nasty. And it's just so...it's like saying "you write slash and so you hate women" or "you write femslash and so you hate men."

I didn't jump ship when Martha came on the scene and I know I'm not going to jump ship when Donna shows up. I just have no desire to pair up the Doctor with whoever happens to be onscreen, because that's not what it was about with Rose to me in the first place. But why do I have to defend *not* flopping ships with each new companion? Curse you and your crazy logic, Doctor Who fandom!

Yes, there are some crazy D/R 'shippers out there. But there are equally crazy Sheppard/Weir and Harry/Hermione 'shippers out there, and those are 'ships *I* support. So I can sympathize because I'd feel the same way you do if I was being painted with the same brush as them. *HUG*

Ugh. Labels. Gotta love 'em.

[audrich.livejournal.com]

Thanks for sparking the discussion, Michelle, I think you and your flist just go to prove that we're/they're not all nutters.

(Well, I might be, but not in the DW fandom ::beams::)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

*CLINGS TO FLIST*

[nostariel]

Good God, the past week has been a nightmare in this fandom. I hate seeing people use academic techniques to beat down their opponents, and thereby insinuate that all those who disagree with them are Stoopid.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

You want actual discussion without finger-pointing and without logic angels themselves would weep at? Pffffft!