mrv3000 | Notions of women

Current Mood: awake

Entry tags:

sg-1

Notions of women

I'd intended to watch more Red Dwarf last night, but got sucked into looking through old journal posts. And...I made an icon. A nostalgic icon. Mwah.

I think I've said before that I want to be

splash_the_cat when I grow up. She's got a hooray for Sam Carter post that talks about some fandom issues with the character. Including the one that if Sam had been in a relationship with Jack, that she'd simply become "Jack's girlfriend." Man, that one used to bug the crap out of me back when I was in SG-1 fandom. Why's it always that the woman seems to suddenly be "*only* defined by the relationship" if in a relationship with a man, however, the man does not? Why?? For every pairing that I've shipped over the years, I really can't think of one case where either the woman or the man suddenly lost their individual identity due to going into a relationship (or simply the possibility of going into a relationship - UST and so on). Where does this fandom notion COME from?

Actually, I think I might know where it comes from - a bit. There's such a history - well, history of the world, basically - that a woman's worth was based on what man she was with. It was only in the 20th century that norms began to change. Slowly. So I think there's the need to make absolutely sure that these old notions of "a woman's worth is contingent on a man" does not touch female characters. Which is a good idea. But then it moves to the next level of the idea that a woman really must have *nothing* to do with a man or else it will be implied that her worth is gained through him. And so any sort of romantic relationship (or hint of a romantic relationship) and suddenly the woman becomes "weak" in some's eyes. And god forbid a woman ever display any kind of emotions, even if they fit the circumstances. I can't remember the details since it was a few years back, but do remember after one episode where Sam became emotional about something - and I remember thinking it was justifiable - I'd seen comments of people thinking she didn't deserve to be an Air Force officer because of it.

*sighs*

I sometimes think that to some, the *only* way a woman character can be "strong" is to be Aeryn Sun: leather-wearing, gun-toting, and emotionally repressed. And...we've just got very different ideas about what a "strong woman" is then.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

And even Aeryn's greatest strength as a character came from turning that image (and her background) on its head.

Right there with you on some people going overboard. I just have to take a deep breath and go "okay, that's her hangup, life goes on." It's a vocal minority, but it is a minority. Which just makes them more vocal, because then they feel all threatened, but whatever. *shrug*

And even Aeryn's greatest strength as a character came from turning that image (and her background) on its head.

True - she started out as this caricature (for a man or woman) where she actually *wasn't* a strong woman - simply following orders and not thinking for herself - and kept moving to being her own person. And it also happened while she developed a romantic relationship with John.

Right there with you on some people going overboard. I just have to take a deep breath and go "okay, that's her hangup, life goes on." It's a vocal minority, but it is a minority. Which just makes them more vocal, because then they feel all threatened, but whatever. *shrug*

*DEEP BREATHES*

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! OMG, that icon! Memories! Can't. Stop. Laughing. :d

I KNOW! :d

I've been thinking about this a fair amount lately -- "strong women" was my theme for Blogathon. When I wanted to post about them, I realized I needed to define the term. I think that's the step people miss. They see one woman who is crying and another who can stand up in a fight and they say that the first is weak and the second is strong. Except that if the first is Sam Carter, crying because someone close to her has died, and the second is Kara Thrace, they've got it backwards. I challenge anyone familiar with Galactica to call Kara strong (unless they're talking physically). She's a drunk, an emotionally screwed up hothead who screws around on the men in her life. Sam Carter, on the other hand, is a brilliant woman who is beyond successful in science and in her Air Force career, both of which are generally considered to be men's areas. And she does it without giving up being female. That's strength. Anyone who truly believes otherwise needs to take a hard look at themselves and at their real-life role models.

Well, you hit on an important point - you really need to actually *look* at the character/situation/etc. It boils down to lazy stereotyping to automatically say "all crying is weak" and "all fighting is strong." They can be...or not.

I realized I needed to define the term. I think that's the step people miss.

So very with you there.

There was a post linked from

metafandom a few weeks back about the term being essentially meaningless as it's used in fandom. And I'm really with that too.

As for Starbuck...she's the walking embodiment of the difference between strong and tough. And not a reliable example of the latter, even as a pilot. When she got to the point where her emotional brokenness was putting her fellow officers in danger, I lost respect for anyone who'd let her near a cockpit.

What strength she started with has been systematically stripped from her as the series progresses, and some people's failure to recognize that scares the tar out of me.

What strength she started with has been systematically stripped from her as the series progresses, and some people's failure to recognize that scares the tar out of me.

Yeah, season 3 Kara is just...a mess. And not the kind of endearing mess I found her to be in the first couple seasons, because all the BSG characters are screwed up messes really, so there was not problem with Kara being one too. But in season 3, she's not even a functional screw up.

Though I still hate Adama for kicking her out of the family (though a large part of that was because it was never addressed).

Where does this fandom notion COME from?

It always annoyed me that fandom was able to jump all over this and claim its truth simply because Amanda said it first. That woman and her interviews used to change my moods so much when I was SGified.

I think it was a legitimate concern for Amanda, as an actress, to worry that her character would be shunted off to the side if she became the lead character's love interest. I get the feeling that Amanda's had to spend a good amount of time over the years reminding the writers that some of their notions about women and feminism and female emotions are whacked.

It is unfortunate, though, that it coincided so closely with one of the most common complaints about female characters, especially one that is so often a cover-up for "omg, one half of my OTP looked at her funny, she sux!"

Yeah, I'm probably putting too much on her here, especially considering how the writers have come across recently. I have little faith in them anymore and can believe Amanda having a hard time.

Yeah, I could see how she'd be concerned about her character. I remember still being a bit annoyed when she said it though.

I sometimes think that to some, the *only* way a woman character can be "strong" is to be Aeryn Sun: leather-wearing, gun-toting, and emotionally repressed. And...we've just got very different ideas about what a "strong woman" is then.

Which is kind of funny because I wonder if people remember that a large part of Aeryn's arc wound up being about becoming wife and mother, and long before that just about opening herself up to emotions she'd never had before. She never stopped being a complete bad ass while doing so, which gives some proof that female characters do not have to become defined by the men in their lives just because they have them there.

There is a problem that I think TV writers (generally male) do have a bit of a hard time writing women in relationships who aren't defined by them. Say BSG where Anders keeps getting more character beyond being "Kara's husband" but Dee really isn't much more than "Lee's wife," and unlike Anders, Dee wasn't even introduced as a love interest. Or take Martha's crush on the Doctor that became such a defining character trait rather than a realistic story involving unrequited love.

It doesn't have to happen, it doesn't happen just because characters get into a relationship, the writers just need to be better at it so that it doesn't happen.

Which is kind of funny because I wonder if people remember that a large part of Aeryn's arc wound up being about becoming wife and mother, and long before that just about opening herself up to emotions she'd never had before. She never stopped being a complete bad ass while doing so, which gives some proof that female characters do not have to become defined by the men in their lives just because they have them there.

Well, exactly. I would definitely say that Aeryn did not become defined by John, that's for sure.

There is a problem that I think TV writers (generally male) do have a bit of a hard time writing women in relationships who aren't defined by them. Say BSG where Anders keeps getting more character beyond being "Kara's husband" but Dee really isn't much more than "Lee's wife," and unlike Anders, Dee wasn't even introduced as a love interest. Or take Martha's crush on the Doctor that became such a defining character trait rather than a realistic story involving unrequited love.

Yeah, it does happen in shows sometimes, which probably does add to the knee-jerk of "if a woman is portrayed in a relationship, she automatically becomes weak."

It doesn't have to happen, it doesn't happen just because characters get into a relationship, the writers just need to be better at it so that it doesn't happen.

Although, sometimes the writers do play with that kind of thing intentionally. Not every single woman character needs to be Strong Woman - it's kind of getting into a cookie-cutter mentality. It'd be the same if every woman character needs to be Weak Woman. Like Dee - she kind of had her own little story arc where she did become simply "Lee's wife." But to me in BSG, pretty much every character has massive flaws. Dee chose to settle for someone who she was pretty sure loved someone else, and so it kinda made sense for the relationship to then somewhat define her. It wasn't the healthiest of things to begin with.

Love those last two sentences. It's so true but hopefully is changing. At least the smart, funny girl gets the guy in the movies these days - in the early days of cinema, the smart funny one was always the eternal spinster.

There really are a lot of stereotypes still going on, aren't there? I know I'm way more interested when the female romantic lead isn't this perfect, plastic character.

I can't remember the details since it was a few years back, but do remember after one episode where Sam became emotional about something - and I remember thinking it was justifiable - I'd seen comments of people thinking she didn't deserve to be an Air Force officer because of it.

I do remember that after Janet's death in Heroes, a lot of fans were just enraged that she went and got a hug from Jack. Because that's so clearly...wrong or something. Whatever.

And...we've just got very different ideas about what a "strong woman" is then.

Yup. There's not just one way!! And forgive me, but it seems that fans sometimes expect 'strong women' to skew much closer to characteristics that are stereotypically male. Like, since someone else brought her up, Starbuck, as fighter jock.

I do remember that after Janet's death in Heroes, a lot of fans were just enraged that she went and got a hug from Jack. Because that's so clearly...wrong or something. Whatever.

Oy poodles. Grieving isn't weak. Neither is seeking comfort while grieving.

Yup. There's not just one way!! And forgive me, but it seems that fans sometimes expect 'strong women' to skew much closer to characteristics that are stereotypically male. Like, since someone else brought her up, Starbuck, as fighter jock.

And really those are stereotypes for men as well as women. Who exactly is like that in the world? It's sorta like thinking the only way a man can be strong is if he's also leather-wearing, gun-toting and emotionally repressed.

Another reaction to this whole thing is the Get Sam Laid Comment Challenge, which is a fun way of going "Neenerneenerneener!" at that particular community. Hee.

Bwah!

That's happened more than once. The episode that her CO was shot in front of her, Sam takes a moment for herself when she gets back to the cargo bay. And fandom went apeshit, claiming she was SUCH a horrible example, blah, blah, etc.

Oh man. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about - women have an honest human reaction and it's OMGWEAK. And everything else about her gets chucked out the window because those 30 seconds or whatever have damaged years-worth of the character forever.

This is a rather late comment, but I am writing up a babble-essay thing about "strong" women in fandom and remembered this post. I hope it's okay that I draw from your ideas (with credit), I agree with the difference between 'strong' and 'tough' that sometimes fails to be differentiated by fans.

Also, do you remember a similar post in this vein that was Rose-centric? Something debating the fact that she was not only defined by her relationship with the Doctor and that it made her weak. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, or you're freaked out that someone would dig up an old entry, don't worry, it's not a big deal.

No, don't mind at all. :)

And I did to a meta post about Rose, disputing the whole Rose was weak for wanting to be with the Doctor and/or crying during Doomsday thing, if that's what you're talking about.

http://mrv3000.livejournal.com/515970.html

That's it exactly! Thanks.

I can't even navigate my OWN journal, I knew there was no way I'd be able to find things in someone elses.

I use my gmail search feature which is FAB.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Notions of women

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject