On OTP-ism.

[mrv3000]

This is prompted by seeing something on a way-off community involving no one on my flist. (Just to be clear that I'm not doing some kind of passive-aggressive thing with any of you.) But it is something that I've seen many, many times before, and it always grates on me. In essence, that multi-shipping will solve the world's ills.

Now let me be clear: I seriously could care less what anyone gets up to in the way of shipping. I might privately raise an eyebrow at a pairing, but if someone wants to write Eleven/Amy, Ten/River, Mickey/Rose, or River/Amy/Mickey/Eleven/Ten/Jack, whatever man. If I'm interested, I'll read. If I'm not, I won't. I won't consider it a holy mission to dissuade people from writing their pairing because it's "wrong." (However, it's a completely different matter if I dissect a relationship in a meta-type manner on my journal. Picking apart canon and coming to my own conclusion that, say, Amy and Eleven don't have a romantic relationship whatsoever doesn't equate to me saying "THOU SHALT NOT WRITE ELEVEN/AMY." Fic is there to give us what we don't get in canon.)

On to my sin:

I'm a serial OTP-er. I rather doubt this will ever change. Pretty much all of my fannish experience (even before the 10 years I've been hanging out in fandom) has been me latching on to one pairing and squeeing the hell out of it. I don't find it particularly juvenile that I generally only ship one pairing, but yet I see so many comments that indicate as much. That somehow a person is enlightened if they can multi-ship (or really enlightened if they like threesomes or more) and some sort of idiot fangirl if they OTP. Or that if a person has an OTP, then by that very definition they must be on a crusade to wreck every other pairing. Um, say what? Just because I don't find some other ship plausable doesn't mean that someone else can't. (Unless they believe that my thinking trumps their thinking; in which case, dude, get me a latte! I've always wanted a minion!)

So I've gotta wonder: just how enlightened can one be if they don't respect someone else's OTP ways?

Comments

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[papilio-luna.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I agree. I have gotten myself into some seriously bizarre fandom hot water over my behaving as if it is totally okay that I really just ship one pairing. What I failed to understand was that, according to Who fandom (idk how it is anywhere else), I am narrow-minded, shallow, juvenile and probably mentally unsound and I should definitely be ashamed of myself and hide my hideous OTP shipping ways when in polite company. Even though I don't care who/how anyone else ships and would never ever presume to bag on someone's ship in any other way than a private, locked eyebrow-raise.

It's why I don't play in general reccing comms any more. All my recs tend to have that whiff of OTP and that is definitely Not Allowed.

Though, at least in Who fandom, D/R OTP gets way more shit than say Three/Master OTP or Four/Romana OTP. But certainly the way to be accepted as a cool kid is to very loudly multiship, anyone and everyone (or be a sniffy anti-shipper all around).

And I've seen so many people argue that you can't possibly be a good writer if you just write one pairing. Which is such bullshit because it assumes that the only factor in story-telling is two characters. Which is the same fallacy that leads to "all fanfic writers lack creativity and are just copying." NO. Actually. You can tell a gazillion very different, very intricate, very... varied stories even if the one constant in all of them is two characters. And I've seen people who write lots and lots of different ships but the fic always sounds the same because they don't change anything else. But that's somehow okay because multishipping is automatically awesome and enlightened.

A nerve: you have touched it. Apparently.

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I've encountered the attitude in other fandoms, but it's definitely much more pronounced in DW fandom. There's a side of "Doctor Who is about change" that helps it along, I think.

And I've seen that about writing as well. Fortunately I haven't seen it nearly as much, but it's there. Right along with the notion that if you don't write sex, you must be immature.

(frozen comment)

[shinyopals.livejournal.com]

Ship wars are like religious debates. Everyone is convinced they are right--except for those who favour tentacles and know they're being silly--and yet nobody gets converted.

HAVE YOU DECIDED ON A HARRY POTTER SHIP YET?

XD Anyway, silliness aside, I agree. OF COURSE.

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

*nods* :D

And why won't anyone take my Snape/whumping tree ship seriously???

(But really, I imagine I won't have a ship at all, probably because they're wee children. :D)

(frozen comment)

[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

Just to be clear here, I'm assuming that when you say "multi-shippers," you mean people who want to ship anyone/everyone except canon pairings, versus people who like multiple canon ships from a show, or even a mix of canon pairings and alternative pairings from a show.

I'm not sure where the aggressively anti-canon attitude comes from, honestly. Do anti-canon-shippers think that refusing to acknowledge the validity of canon relationships is somehow Sticking It to The Man?

Not everyone is Captain Jack. Insisting that every character thinks and acts in exactly the same way he does is just a different box to shove everyone into.

*shakes head, wanders back off to the fic-finishing bunker*

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Sometimes, yeah.

I remember years and years ago (before DW) running across someone who honestly believed you couldn't be a good writer if you wrote a canon pairing. So there is some of that kind of thinking out there.

(frozen comment)

[ginamak.livejournal.com]

It's so absurd. I mean, seriously? Why can't people just like what they like? It's the INTERNET. It contains multitudes.

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[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I don't understand why people get threatened by other people's ships. I really don't.

(frozen comment)

[elismor.livejournal.com]

I don't find it particularly juvenile that I generally only ship one pairing, but yet I see so many comments that indicate as much. That somehow a person is enlightened if they can...

This isn't new to fandom. Years ago, you were enlightened if you liked slash and juvenile if you liked het. After that, you were enlightened if you liked porn/kink and juvenile if you liked gen. Then it was that the people who liked under-age sex were enlightened and those who didn't were juvenile. Then, you were enlightened if you liked RPS/F and juvenile if you didn't.


It extends well beyond fandom and into human nature. Yankees fans are enlightened, Sox fans are juvenile. Those who read literature are enlightened, those who read Romance are juvenile...

It's just Us and Them in different pants.

PS. Everyone knows that the only 'ship in Who is Doctor/Tardis.

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I remember the whole slash vs. het thing. Thank god that's over. (Or at least I've not seen it around in a very long time.) I guess there always has to be something us Sneetches can point to and feel superior about.

PS. Everyone knows that the only 'ship in Who is Doctor/Tardis.

XD XD XD Sending you a text in 3..2..1..

(frozen comment)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_thirty2flavors/]

I won't consider it a holy mission to dissuade people from writing their pairing because it's "wrong." (However, it's a completely different matter if I dissect a relationship in a meta-type manner on my journal. Picking apart canon and coming to my own conclusion that, say, Amy and Eleven don't have a romantic relationship whatsoever doesn't equate to me saying "THOU SHALT NOT WRITE ELEVEN/AMY." Fic is there to give us what we don't get in canon.)

ugh I agree with all of this. There are plenty of pairings that freak me out for one reason or another but I don't care if someone else writes it.

Shipping in general is hilarious because people get so self-righteous over it. ONLY CANON SHIPS! ONLY FANON SHIPS! ONLY MULTI-SHIPPING! ONLY OTPING! ONLY OT3-4-5-6-ETCING! Goddamn people we are discussing the love lives of fictional characters, whatever your opinion is, you are not ~enlightened~.

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Goddamn people we are discussing the love lives of fictional characters, whatever your opinion is, you are not ~enlightened~.

*dies*

I think that sums it up best. :D

(frozen comment)

[catyuy.livejournal.com]

In my mind you can ship whatever you want.
As long as you don't try and convert/yell at me over what I ship or start some useless war over it.

Same thing with religious beliefs.

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly! Why's it so hard for fandom most times?

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[maypanic.livejournal.com]

What sad lives these people must lead.

Do you think they go to weddings just so they can corner the couple and be all "Wait, you're marrying ONE PERSON, and you have similar goals and values, and people who observe you agree that you're well suited for each other and seem ridiculously happy together?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU, THAT'S NOT HOW IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE AT ALL!!"

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[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

BWAH!!

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[fauxkaren.livejournal.com]

Eh. I multiship some fandoms (like Buffy). I am OTP about other fandoms (like Lost and Doctor Who).

Honestly, I think the reason that OTP-ers get a bad name is because of shipping wars. You're a lot more likely to see OTP-ers on opposite sides of the fence engaging in shipping wars than people who casually ship or multiship. So because of a few people who get involved in stupid internet wars, OTP-ers get looked down on. Idk though. Maybe not.

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

That's probably true. Of course, it's blatant generalization and it would be like me saying that all multi-shippers are OTP haters.

(frozen comment)

[nic]

You made me realise that I sometimes feel embarrassed to admit that D/R is my main "Whoverse" ship. There's just so much negativity towards this pairing.

I recently had an online discussion where someone was wondering why a lot of fandom is geared towards OTPs. I responded because it was what I want for myself, I'm personally not INTO poly/open/multi relationships. It's a personal preference, not something that is required to prove that humans can do whatever they want!

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

It totally comes down to personal preference. I'm not going to do something simply because it's cool or the done thing.

But if someone has a preference for multi-shipping, good on them. The only thing I get cranky about is when any group tells any other group that they're doing fandom wrong.

(frozen comment)

[unfolded73.livejournal.com]

papilio_luna equates shipping with falling in love above, and that's how it's always been for me at first. When I first fall in love with a pairing (and this has only happened to me a handful of times), I feel it so intensely that I can't really stomach reading or writing another pairing involving either of the two characters in question.

After some time passes, though, after that first blush of love has worn off, my eye does start to stray. When that happened with Ten/Rose, I only strayed within certain parameters that fit my self-proscribed "rules": Only Ten, and only post-S4: Ten/Jack after CoE, Ten/Master circa TEoT, Ten/QEII, Ten/River. I never wrote Ten II or Rose with anyone else. (I'm not counting Ten/Ten II/Rose in that, of course.) So even when I multi-ship, I've got all these internal constraints that allow me to be okay with it. And I think that's because my feelings about pairings I write are deeply personal and invoke really strong emotions in me.

I respect multi-shipping, but it seems like it must be a more detached thing than what I experience. But I say that as a person in a long-term monogamous relationship -- that's just the way I'm wired. Other people are not, and that's fine with me.

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I'm the same way myself. When I actually do write, even if it's silly fluff, it's coming from a place of strong feelings. I generally have no interest in writing without those feelings.

And I can't say what the experience is for someone who multi-ships, not being someone who does. Maybe someone will weigh in on their experiences.

(frozen comment)

[skybound2]

Ahh, ship wars. They never die, they just mutate. Every time I think I've managed to find a fandom where there can't POSSIBLY be ship wars, I am proven wrong (I remember thinking that SPN would be ship war free on account of the leads being brothers. Boy was I wrong. o_0).

The whole enlightened thing just stinks to high heaven to me as people wanting to feel "entitled" which is just annoying. Like they feel that their ship(s) or lack thereof are so much more important and therefore everyone should just stop with everything else. Its frustrating.

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I remember thinking that SPN would be ship war free on account of the leads being brothers. Boy was I wrong. o_0

OH BOY. :D

And yes, it's completely frustrating. Telling me to do something I have no interest in is very annoying.

(frozen comment)

[surreallis.livejournal.com]

I think what I hate is the weird assumption that if you ship, you ship all the time everywhere and everything. Like, somehow you're ruining it for everyone else. No. Shipping doesn't take anything away from anyone else. I watch a lot of shows and enjoy them and don't care about the ships, but when I'm in a fandom, I SHIP. It's how I have my fun.

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Yes! Same here! Actually I'd say that the vast majority of shows I watch I could care less about shipping.

(frozen comment)

[loriel-eris.livejournal.com]

Oh god, I am all about the OTP. Don't get me wrong, there are a few occasions where there two OTPs (Harry Potter, I'm looking at you) and usually, there'll be some other pairings that I like, but mostly this is me making sure that all my main cast get they One True Love and live Happily Ever After.

There's only twice that I've multi-ship. The first was SGA. In the beginning I was very ambivalent towards SGA and thus didn't really have any strong preferences about ships, thus I started with John/Elizabeth, and then discovered John/Rodney, and now, I'm omg all about the John/Rodney OTP-ness. In fact, I'm so shamelessly SGA-y and John/Rodney-y that I do a double take when I look back on myself of 5+ years ago.

The second, which I'm not entirely sure if it counts or not, was Dr Who. In new-who S1, I was totally completely and utterly all about Nine & Rose. (Not Nine/Rose, but Nine & Rose. My relationship with Dr Who and romance and sex is not something I understand, much less can explain to anyone else.) I was not happy at the end of S1. Or at the start of S2. Then, god only knows how, I was all about Ten & Rose.

But other than that, I'm pretty much OTP, with occasional forays into friends of my OTPs. *g*

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

It's funny how that all happens. :D

I briefly flirted with Sam/Daniel in SG-1, but then it became all about the Sam/Jack, where like you, I sometimes wondered about my Sam/Daniel-ness.

(frozen comment)

[leighleighla.livejournal.com]

Isn't fandom supposed to be a "whatever floats your boat" kind of thing?

I don't get people hating on other people's shipping habits. I understand disliking a 'ship, but I try not to judge other people's tastes.

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

It's supposed to be, yeah. But it doesn't always go that way.

(frozen comment)

[rattus-aerius.livejournal.com]

I think fandom as a whole is severely constipated.

SOMEONE SHOVE A HOSE UP IT.

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[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

*sporfles*

(frozen comment)

[goldy-dollar.livejournal.com]

Oh man I remember when I first joined Who fandom and being so surprised that OTP shipping was seen as this dirty sin that was DESTROYING FANDOM!!! I even remember reading that once Martha came along, we'd all see the light and start multi-shipping like proper fans.

I don't think fandom is *quite* that bad anymore, but every once in a while I still see comments along the lines of "Why are there so many Ten/Rose fics, how come fans haven't moved on yet??" and it makes me facepalm because WHO CARES how someone else is doing fandom.

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I'd seen this attitude before DW fandom, but it really was especially rampant after Rose left. Granted some of that bled over into ship wars and so on, but there really is an attitude out there that if you don't multi-ship in DW fandom, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG. It was probably one of the more bizarre things I've come across. (Strange kinks I can understand - dictating how to do fandom, I can't.)

(frozen comment)

[nicachick007.livejournal.com]

Agreed! In every way. I also think that Eleven/Amy never is going to happen, but I happen to think she fits very well with her fiance... Rory? I'm behind and it's been awhile since I watched. But I'm glad that that officially got settled in canon. But if out in their own little universe someone wants them to have crazy ElevAmy babies, go for it.

Though I have been having a fight with this guy in my biology class because he thinks season 3 is the best season ever. He said he didn't like Rose. I'm not talking to him anymore.

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I've actually not watched anything past the first two eps of S5, so the Eleven/Amy is more of an example. But if people want to ship it, ship away!

And ha!! Oh, S3. You had so much emo!Doctor.

(frozen comment)

[outforawalk.livejournal.com]

I have always been a OTP type, dating back to my infant days of shipping David and Maddie or Bobbie and Pam. (Yep, I was a shipper even in elementary school watching inappropriate shows.) I don't think that makes me any less mature than the fact that I watch Gossip Girl, Doctor Who, or Gilmore Girls and actually root for these fictional people to get it right/be happy/whatever. I found it annoying to be told that I was doing it wrong in fandom back when I first started online and was reading all the Mulder/Scully Romance I could find. Apparently, Mulder and Scully hated each other and it would ruin the show if they even thought about kissing. But then I'm always surprised to discover what other people would like to control about everyone else's fandom experience.

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

*nods*

Meta-ing about what's happening on the show is one thing, but telling others not to ship something because "IT WOULD RUIN THE SHOW, OMG!!11!" is a bit crackers. Believing it yourself, fine. Telling others "thou shalt not," not fine.

(frozen comment)

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Just because I don't find some other ship plausable doesn't mean that someone else can't.

None of them? Wow. That kind of shocks me in the face.

It's down to shipwars. The multi-OTP people don't tend to get het up so much when you stray into something new. (It was the same with Stargate, wasn't it?) Also they are sort of... easier to talk to. Because you're not working against the insistence that "omg only this pairing is canon/fanon/good."

Within that though people totally have OTP-style pairings where if someone else doesn't see it you're (generic) like "omgwtf how can you not?"

I dunno. Does it not get boring having only the one ship? Seriously, does it? Cos I always wonder that.

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

None of them? Wow. That kind of shocks me in the face.

I'm...not quite following. What I mean is that even if I don't find Ten/Jack plausable, there's no reason why someone else can find it plausable.

It's down to shipwars. The multi-OTP people don't tend to get het up so much when you stray into something new. (It was the same with Stargate, wasn't it?) Also they are sort of... easier to talk to. Because you're not working against the insistence that "omg only this pairing is canon/fanon/good."

Within that though people totally have OTP-style pairings where if someone else doesn't see it you're (generic) like "omgwtf how can you not?"

Shipwars really do throw a wrench in everything and often get people feeling like they're backed into a corner. However, it probably doesn't help much when people come into a shipwar insisting that rainbows would abound if only everone would just multi-ship. :D

The best solution is to live-and-let-live, which I guess is easier said than done when it feels like your favorite pairing is being attacked.

I dunno. Does it not get boring having only the one ship? Seriously, does it? Cos I always wonder that.

Not for me, really. I tend to stick with one for quite a while, and when I'm done, I move on. But while I'm with a ship I find I have plenty to discuss and fic about. I guess I don't really see it as limiting myself, but rather paying attention to what I'm interested in - what gets me emotionally.

(frozen comment)

[bittybye2000.livejournal.com]

I can be a muti shipper but usually only with one character

In Harry Potter my main ship was Harry/Hermione. But I read (and loved) Hermione/Draco, Hermione/Fred, Hermione/Neville, Hermione/Ginny, Hermione/Luna, and for one (I swear) Hermione/Voldemort. However Harry could never be with anyone else unless it was Hermione/Luna/Harry. *blushes*

In Stargate SG-1 I am Daniel/Vala but I can do Daniel/Janet or Daniel/Sam. But Vala only gets Daniel.

In Atlantis is was John/Teyla or Teyla/Michel.

Come to think of it Doctor Who and Star Wars are the only two fandoms that I don't multi ship. There it's strictly Doctor/Rose (although I've read 9/10/11/Rose not all together!) and with Star Wars it has to be Padme/Anakin(or Vader)

Although there are a few TV shows or movies I watch causally where I usually only have one Tony/Pepper from Iron Man. Booth/Bones from Bones. Rachel/Ivy from the Hollow books.

Mostly I'm opened minded with other ships. Aside from incest, which disgusts me. And while I'm not a fan of MM I don't begrudge the fans. I just don't read it.

The only time I really get annoyed with another 'faction' of shippers is when they belittle my ship.

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Huh! I guess you're not unusual though. There are many who ship the Doctor with tons of other people, much like Hermoine is with you.

And, you know, I bet that 9/10/11/Rose all together exists somewhere. Rule 34!

(frozen comment)

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

So you know I'm an OTP'er in at least one instance. :-D And several others actually. But I'm not always. It totally depends on the characters and the fandom for me. Nine/Rose, Ten/Rose and Ten II/Rose just WORK for me, like Mulder/Scully and several others did in the past. But I've actually worked myself around to being vaguely OK with potential future Eleven/River. Not OK with Eleven/Amy, but I get why others like it. So it's not like I feel like the Doctor has to pine for Rose forever (even if occasionally I kind of wish he would, just a little).

In some fandoms there just isn't an OTP for me. That doesn't mean I'm going to multi-ship, though. Some fandoms it means I'm not interested in any pairings at all. In others... well, I suppose for some this would actually be defined as multi-shipping, but since for me shipping apparently means the same thing as OTP, multi-shipping feels like an oxymoron. (Note: this is my definition; I'm well aware that others have a different definition.) So I will read multiple pairings in those other fandoms, and enjoy it, but I wouldn't call myself a shipper for any of those.

Does that even make sense? I feel like I'm rambling incoherently, but it has been awhile since I've done that in your journal. :-D

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it makes sense to me and you're right that everyone has a different definition.

I've certainly read other pairings in DW, and even enjoyed some of them. However I can't really say that I ship any of the other pairings I've read. Also there are other shows where I think a couple is cute, but it's not like I'm actively shipping them.

(frozen comment)

[adriana-is.livejournal.com]

This is not new to me at all. I've shipped Mulder/Scully, Buffy/Spike, Nine/Rose, Ten/Rose, Eric/Sookie. And, I'm sure somewhere down the line I'll ship something else.

What has bothered me in the DW fandom is the Rose hate. It's bothered me but then I remember the Buffy hate, the Sookie hate and all the other stuff. (rolls eyes) whatever. You love who you love, right?

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it sometimes gets hard to ignore the hate, doesn't it?

(frozen comment)

[jesidres.livejournal.com]

DW was the first fandom that I found this wasn't a common held assumption of fans, so maybe that's why I got in trouble for daring to enjoy my OTP beyond it's on air time.

And as usual, you manage to write much more eloquelently than I ever could. Which is why I stick to drawing and less than threeing you.

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I'd seen ship wars in other fandoms before, but DW was the first time I've run across this sort of...ideological battle, for lack of a better term. It baffles me.

(frozen comment)

[azarsuerte.livejournal.com]

(Using this icon because it seems appropriate in an ironic sort of way... ;-) )

I think like many people above have said, a lot of it comes down to how you're wired. I used to have a lot more OTPs when I was more of a believer in the "one true love" concept. Whereas lately I've gotten hooked on the idea of the role choice plays in falling/staying in love, so I've become addicted to the never-ending "what if they'd made THIS choice instead?" that multi-shipping allows me. :-)

I do still have a few OTPs, and not even all of them left over from "the old days," but even with those I've discovered I'm okay with another pairing IF one half of my OTP is permanently out of the picture. For example, I OTP Clark Kent/Lois Lane like crazy, but in situations like the graphic novel Kingdom Come, where Lois has lived out her mortal life and Clark has to go on, I'm okay with him moving on with someone else. Mostly because I have this vivid memory of reading a news story years ago where people were sending Ekaterina Gordeeva hate mail for getting involved with another skater (I forget his name) after Sergei Grinkov died, telling her she was "betraying" his memory. I remember being just appalled that this young woman was expected to spend the rest of her life alone, whether she wanted to or not, just because the public felt they had a proprietary investment in her "epic" tragic love story. :-(

Which is not to say that people who have OTPs DO believe that in real life (or heck, in fiction for that matter), it's only possible to fall in love once in a lifetime, just that changing that opinion was what changed things for ME.

That and I'm also just easily distracted by the new shiny. (Which, hopefully, is not a reflection of what I'd be like in a real relationship. :-o ;-) )

I think people can and should 'ship however they want, as long as they afford me the same privilege. ;-)

(frozen comment)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

You've made me do a little reflecting of my own. Personally I don't believe in "one true love" - that you get one shot and that's all there is. I guess I feel like I can do that in fiction though. It's an idealized world where happily ever after is no problem. It's escapism, just as fandom as a whole is for me. It's a fun little world where there aren't any problems or sadness or goodbyes, unless I want there to be.

And that story about Ekaterina Gordeeva is horrible, especially since it's an actual person, not just fiction. Those letter writers are appalling.