One month on.

[mrv3000]

So I read general plot spoilers for the upcoming DW Christmas episode on someone on my flist's journal, but for the life of me I can't find it back. (The dangers of trying to catch up after a weekend.)

Those that want to hang on to the notion that I still have a thread of sanity left may want to skip.

So if I remember correctly, it was said the Christmas episode will be a mixture of "It's a Wonderful Life," "The Christmas Carol" and something else, I think. And rumor of Sarah Jane returning? Or maybe some sort of flashback? Not sure.

So if you've been looking at all in my direction in the last month or so, you might have gathered some sort of cynicism from me in relation to future Doctor Who episodes. And it's in this cynical nature that I've already formulated opinions about the Christmas episode. Fucking insane, remember?

So when I see the titles from above, my mind instantly thinks: Well, great. The Doctor's going to go through some sort of thing where he realizes that everyone is better for having met him. And so he'll get to deal and move on from Rose, which is what I suppose the show needs to go forward. Happy rainbows for all!

Well, except for Rose. She's, you know, stuck in a fucking parallel world.

I mean, if *Sarah Jane* (who most would argue was a *much* stronger person than Rose) was unable to move on, to not have closure until she saw the Doctor again, what, 30 years after they parted ways? And had the type of relationship that wasn't at the same level as the Doctor and Rose (yeah, do not care how hard you try and retcon that one, I'm not buying it was the same.)? You really think Rose is going to have this happy, shiny life? Especially with the way things ended?

ETA: By "level" I mean that SJ's relationship never went to that romantic level, which is where Rose went. Which would only make it that much harder to move on.

So yes. Still bitter about how they handled Rose's departure. Hell, I as the *viewer* needed closure.

*sigh*

Back to thinking I really don't need to be watching future eps. Sounds like they'll only just make me crazy. er. To which I'm sure many an old schooler is thinking, "Yay! One more D/R person bites the dust. Now maybe we can get to some *real* Doctor Who."

How did I get so bitter? I never used to be this way. Seriously. Although, make no mistake. It's not like this has actually consumed my life, despite how it looks on LJ - this journal has *always* been mainly fanish. I don't take long walks on the beach brooding about this or hold my finger over the unfriend button if someone on my flist doesn't like Rose since that's probably about 2/3rds of my list.

But how cool would it be if they actually had a big button that said "UNFRIEND"? With lots of exclamation points after it? HA! But I digress...

You know, it probably doesn't help that I've been in the process of writing a DW fic pretty much ever since the finale, and so everything stays fresh in my mind. And I just wrote a small scene where Jack and the Doctor get into it for leaving Jack behind. Ow. (Well, only so far as the Doctor lets him get into it before shutting him down.)

Meanwhile my flist is saying, "sweet Christ, that ended a month ago! Get some therapy already!"

Also, I had pie for breakfast.

ETA: Heh heh heh. Over 20,000 words now.

Comments

[ramdonomo.livejournal.com]

I made this a bit back for calyx:



AHAHAHAHAHA.

I don't dislike Rose. She's just got a SUPAH funneh lookin' mouth. And she said 'f' all the time instead of 'th' and it BOTHERS me. Other than that I <3 her.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

BWAH!!! See, cybermen would be much more effective with that word instead of "delete." People might actually care...

[icepixie]

So I read general plot spoilers for the upcoming DW Christmas episode on someone on my flist's journal, but for the life of me I can't find it back.

That would be me. Or at least I was one person who linked to it.

So if you've been looking at all in my direction in the last month or so, you might have gathered some sort of cynicism from me in relation to future Doctor Who episodes.

Really? No. Surely not. ;)

I just try to avoid thinking too hard about Doomsday anymore, now that I've spent my rage. Judicious application of Old Skool eps and audios has helped me out, because usually they don't even make a pretense at characterization, so there's little to screw up in that regard, and it's all about the gloriously cheesy plots. :D

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

That would be me. Or at least I was one person who linked to it.

Oh, so I get to blame YOU. ;)

Really? No. Surely not. ;)

Nooooooooo. I am Queen Subtle.

I just try to avoid thinking too hard about Doomsday anymore, now that I've spent my rage. Judicious application of Old Skool eps and audios has helped me out, because usually they don't even make a pretense at characterization, so there's little to screw up in that regard, and it's all about the gloriously cheesy plots. :D

*SNORT*

I might be headed in that direction, but working on the fic has really kept me right at Doomsday most the time. So unhealthy.

[icepixie]

Oh, so I get to blame YOU. ;)

Heh. I live to serve.

I might be headed in that direction, but working on the fic has really kept me right at Doomsday most the time. So unhealthy.

Dude, go rent yourself "City of Death." IT HAS JOHN CLEESE ANALYZING THE TARDIS AS MODERN ART. That should cheer you up to no end. Plus, Four and Romana running around Paris being uber-cute. (Or if you want something non-shippy, the whole Key to Time saga is fun as well; it's the first Romana, and they're still kind of wary of each other before she regenerates.)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

IT HAS JOHN CLEESE ANALYZING THE TARDIS AS MODERN ART.

GET. OUT.

[icepixie]

IT SO DOES.

Video clip proof. (Click on "Modern Art.")

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

Ack! I'm torn. I'm working my way through in a sort of chronological way (as in, as in order as I can make it when I can get my hands on the episodes), but I haven't made it to the Fourth Doctor yet, just Two and Three. But I really want to get to Four, since I know there's tons of good episodes there. I've been hearing so many good things about "City of Death".

[icepixie]

Four is love! :)

Eight is my favorite Doctor, thanks to the audios, but Four is a very close second. There are definitely some really great episodes in his run, and IMO Romana is one of the most interesting companions he's ever had. The Sarah/Four relationship is also one I find to be quite multi-layered and fun to watch.

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

And had the type of relationship that wasn't at the same level as the Doctor and Rose (yeah, do not care how hard you try and retcon that one, I'm not buying it was the same.)?

Of course it wasn't the same. "Not at the same level," however, has implications I so very very very can't agree with. With zero retcon required, TYVM.

Just sayin'.

(I also rather disagree about the not-moving-on thing. But on that, I seem to disagree with, like, practically the entire *$(#&$# fandom. So whatever. I still say you can be having a perfectly good, functional life, and something unfinished IS going to produce a bit of a wigfest if it pops up out of the blue. I also think Rose is in pretty much the same position there, actually. But don't mind me, I just work here. *shrug*)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Of course it wasn't the same. "Not at the same level," however, has implications I so very very very can't agree with. With zero retcon required, TYVM.

Yeah, I had a feeling this would make some unhappy.

I guess it all comes down to the way I saw it in watching it the last two serieses, it really was a Doctor/Rose relationship. Not just in the way that he really did love everyone who traveled with him, but, you know, Love.

But I suppose that isn't the PC thing since "everyone's special."

(I also rather disagree about the not-moving-on thing. But on that, I seem to disagree with, like, practically the entire *$(#&$# fandom. So whatever. I still say you can be having a perfectly good, functional life, and something unfinished IS going to produce a bit of a wigfest if it pops up out of the blue. I also think Rose is in pretty much the same position there, actually. But don't mind me, I just work here. *shrug*)

Well, I'm not saying that Rose is going to spend the next 30 years crying in her bed. She'll have a life. But in her mind, I can't see her ever truly moving past this.

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

Not just in the way that he really did love everyone who traveled with him, but, you know, Love.

Which is what's different. Because believe it or not, I actually don't have any trouble believing it.

But the phrase "not at the same level" is problematic in ways I don't necessarily think you intended, but can't help reacting to. (What? You think you're the only one allowed to be crazy? Dream on!)

His involvement with Sarah Jane was, and as far as I'm concerned (all supposed retcon in SR notwithstanding) remains completely platonic.

And as absolutely, positively, inextricably influential and having-of-impact (I'm allergic to the word "impactful" for Dilberty reasons, but sometimes I'm tempted...) as any romantic relationship could be. Ever. Period. That's what makes it the great big tangled mess Sarah is still dealing with when he pops up again, and why I'm horribly insulted on her behalf by the very fans who think they're defending her by getting all in a huff about how her character has been so mangled by having everything reduced to "mooning over a guy." Because it wasn't, and I keep wanting to beat people over the head with obsolete TARDIS parts when they insist it was.

:: deep breath :: Um, hi. That's a bit of a button lately. Y'know, in case you hadn't noticed...

PC has nothing to do with it. They are all special, simply because I believe down to my marrow that that is the way the Doctor's mind works. And...um...I was going somewhere with that, really. Just...It's not about PC. Okay, that's really all I got. Except again with the vaguely insulted. Blowing it off now.

But in her mind, I can't see her ever truly moving past this.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "moving past" it. Because yes, it will always be part of her. But far weaker creatures than she have survived, and thrived, and yes, loved again. Which I recognize is not what you want to hear right now, I really do. {{{ hugs }}}

And no, it's not the same. But there are a thousand other lives she could have had that aren't either. There's no way of knowing which one was "meant to be," if there is such a thing. There's just the one she has, and what she makes of it.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

But the phrase "not at the same level" is problematic in ways I don't necessarily think you intended

I'm sure not. My context was that if Sarah Jane had problems moving past the Doctor, to the point that she never got married - as was heavily implied in SR, how much more would Rose have a problem who actually got to that romantic level with him? I'm gonna edit to clarify.

What? You think you're the only one allowed to be crazy? Dream on!

HA!

Because it wasn't, and I keep wanting to beat people over the head with obsolete TARDIS parts when they insist it was.

*snickers*

But just having watched with only one episode of old SJ in my mind, it really kinda came across that way. At least to me. :(

:: deep breath :: Um, hi. That's a bit of a button lately. Y'know, in case you hadn't noticed...

Go ahead and rant! :)

And you hit me in one of my button issues - seems everywhere I turn lately I'm running into stuff about how the D/R relationship was really nothing special ("special" is apparently a Very Bad Word in fandom) and, you know, he loved everyone like that. To which I'm like, for real? You're really telling me that? In that case, the Doctor's kinda weird. And not a good kind of weird.

It's fandom stuff like that that gets me to that mildly insulted point.

But far weaker creatures than she have survived, and thrived, and yes, loved again.

I'm seriously thinking god help the man Rose decides to eventually hook up with, Mickey or otherwise. He'll always be held up to a level he can never get to. Even Sarah Jane said that in SR.

There's just the one she has, and what she makes of it.

Yup, she'll have no choice.

But that brings me back to the Christmas episode. We'll get to see what happens next to the Doctor. Get to watch as he moves on. But Rose? Who knows? Who cares?

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

if Sarah Jane had problems moving past the Doctor, to the point that she never got married - as was heavily implied in SR, how much more would Rose have a problem who actually got to that romantic level with him?

And that's the point we're stuck on, and as you say, probably going to say that way. I think it's also why I'm not on board with the "OMG they can't be In Love because that would make Rose MORE and that can't be!"

I have no (or very little, and mostly vestigial-from-childhood-and-easily-ignored) trouble believing that the Doctor/Rose relationship was "In Love" in a way that we've never seen before...and have humongous trouble with it necessarily following that it is more.

Because I am a freak, and believe that of relationships in general. In my head, In Love is not (and never has been) more irreplaceable, more meaningful, more life-changing, more likely to change who you are, more...almost anything I can think of, really... than the deepest "not in love" friendships.

Which basically means I'm screwed with not only both "sides" of this particular debate, but pretty much Western civilization in general. I'm used to it by now. It's just every once in a while that I can't help squawking. Feel free to ignore. *shrug*

Knew I forgot something...

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

But just having watched with only one episode of old SJ in my mind, it really kinda came across that way. At least to me. :(

You and everyone else. It's like the Great Unifying Factor.

It's just that I see "after All That Stuff (which happens to be inextricably entangled with the person of the Doctor) Real Life is going to look a little faded, well, pretty much forever."

Which is a very, very different thing from the "Woe, woe, she is lost without her MAAAAN, poor little broken ex-feminist" that a bunch of other people apparently saw.

On sheer numbers, it appears that I'm the delusional one. But I like it much better here even without apparent company, so I deal. *shrug*

[icepixie]

Of course it wasn't the same. "Not at the same level," however, has implications I so very very very can't agree with. With zero retcon required, TYVM.

*nods*

*runs away from Michelle*

*g*

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Hoping my response didn't piss you off or anything. We both know we've never seen eye-to-eye on this and never will. And you hit me on a cranky post-Doomsday day. Headache now.

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

No, not pissed off at all. A little frustrated, mostly because I'm neither fish nor fowl with, like, most of this, and end up assumed to buy into the whole package of the "opposing viewpoint" by pretty much everyone. And apparently completely incapable of communicating what I actually do think. And wondering if I'm completely frelling insane because of it.

But far from pissed off.

:: also headachey ::

:: goes off in search of chocolate ::

:: wires you some, hopes it doesn't melt on teh intarwebs ::

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

MMMMMM. Chocolate!!

A little frustrated, mostly because I'm neither fish nor fowl with, like, most of this, and end up assumed to buy into the whole package of the "opposing viewpoint" by pretty much everyone.

Awwww. *pets*

I'm probably too PTSD - where anyone who happened to watch DW prior to New Who hates me and all I stand for... Okay, might have traveled into paranoia country now. ;)

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

Well, except for Rose. She's, you know, stuck in a fucking parallel world.

*sob* I still haven't re-watched any of season 2, or been able to watch a vid based on "Doomsday", even though it's done by a pro-Rose vidder who's extremely talented (butterfly - vid list here. My favorite is "My Hit Song", but that's mostly from "Christmas Invasion" and earlier. The "Doomsday" one is "Into the Fire.").

You know I'm with you on this, although if we had a choice between what Rose got, and her willingly deciding to walk away from the Doctor, I'd totally choose what we got. But other than that? I like less and less that Rose ended her time with the Doctor sobbing her heart out. I cling to the fanfic fixing it or just plain going around it (i.e., setting it prior to then or making it AU), but. *sigh* I really hope the writers of the Christmas episode have shown at least a little sensitivity to Rose & Rose fans.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

*sob* I still haven't re-watched any of season 2,

I really haven't had a desire to either. Although I have pulled up an ep or two to watch clips to get exact references for the fic.

or been able to watch a vid based on "Doomsday",

Oh, GOD no. Like I need a sad song to make me even more sad about it.

You know I'm with you on this, although if we had a choice between what Rose got, and her willingly deciding to walk away from the Doctor, I'd totally choose what we got.

True. We were flailing for a bit about that possibility. There was just no way, though.

I like less and less that Rose ended her time with the Doctor sobbing her heart out.

Yup - last image of Rose: completely destroyed. Thanks, guys!

I cling to the fanfic fixing it or just plain going around it (i.e., setting it prior to then or making it AU),

I'm so delusional, my head usually stays in my own fix-it fic nowadays. That is until I see some news or something and then it's like, "Son of a BITCH! Canon!" :D

but. *sigh* I really hope the writers of the Christmas episode have shown at least a little sensitivity to Rose & Rose fans.

One can only hope.

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

BTW, I double-dog dare you not to be cheered up by this. *eg*

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Okay, that is WAY too adorable!

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

I was over there about a month back, and we introduced her to Five. It took her a little while to figure out that the blond guy was the Doctor and the red-haired guy was Turlough ("He's a boy companion like Jack") instead of the other way round, but after that she followed "Terminus" admirably well, considering it's kinda complicated and the scary creature is in fact there to help.

She had already been watching some Sarah-era Four stuff (since Mommy, as you may have seen in one of the comments, has had a crush on Sarah since she was nine). So we asked her if she liked Doctor Number Four? Sarah's Doctor? And she held up her fingers in a "little bit" pinch.

Doctor Number Five? The one we just watched? Another "little bit".

Doctor Number Nine? Rose's Doctor? Arms flung out wide.

Doctor Number Ten? Rose's new Doctor? Arms flung out as wide as possible, huge delighted grin.

As I keep telling Amy, there's really no point in bothering with that "in training" modifier...

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I was over there about a month back, and we introduced her to Five. It took her a little while to figure out that the blond guy was the Doctor and the red-haired guy was Turlough ("He's a boy companion like Jack") instead of the other way round, but after that she followed "Terminus" admirably well, considering it's kinda complicated and the scary creature is in fact there to help.

That's pretty impressive. I would have been scared as hell at DW at age five.

She had already been watching some Sarah-era Four stuff (since Mommy, as you may have seen in one of the comments, has had a crush on Sarah since she was nine). So we asked her if she liked Doctor Number Four? Sarah's Doctor? And she held up her fingers in a "little bit" pinch.

Doctor Number Five? The one we just watched? Another "little bit".

Doctor Number Nine? Rose's Doctor? Arms flung out wide.

Doctor Number Ten? Rose's new Doctor? Arms flung out as wide as possible, huge delighted grin.

Okay, again, WAY too adorable. Way way.

As I keep telling Amy, there's really no point in bothering with that "in training" modifier...

Oh no. She's already gone. Soon she'll have he own blog. :D