mrv3000 | Couple of thoughts...

Current Mood: contemplative

Entry tags:

doctor who,
new who

Couple of thoughts...

manticoran got me to thinking. So I've always had it in my mind that Rose and the TARDIS kinda...blended at the end of TPotW. I never thought that Rose was 100% taken over by the TARDIS, just this sort of TARDIS!Rose hybrid.

But she made me think about *why* I've thought that. I think I had it in my mind that the Time Vortex basically *was* the "heart of the TARDIS." Or something. But that's not really the case, is it? The Time Vortex is the energy the TARDIS uses, but the TARDIS is not actually the Vortex.

And I thought they blended because of that line, "I looked into the TARDIS, and the TARDIS looked into me." But that's not really the same thing as saying, "I blended with the TARDIS" or "The TARDIS took me over." It doesn't *negate* the possibility of the TARDIS and Rose blending, but all it really says is that they looked at each other. Like...in a fraction of a second they saw each other's minds, and saw the mutual need to protect the Doctor. So quite possibly, the TARDIS threw the Time Vortex into Rose, without ever actually being *in* Rose herself.

It would fit what the Doctor said about it in Utopia. He talks about how what Rose did with the Vortex was "so human." So at least in the Doctor's mind, it was Rose standing there holding and directing the power of the universe. I'm thinking of going with that notion now, until canon says otherwise.

Another thinky thought for the day - and this one I believe was started by

butterfly - I'm trying to figure out *when* it went from a crush on this hot/amazing guy, to "he's my everything." Martha herself kept saying that he never really looked at her, but it quickly ramped up to this everything place.

Maybe it really was about hero worship/idolizing a god? A god doesn't need to love or acknowledge a follower to inspire love and devotion. They never even really got close to that relationship kind of love, which is why through most of the series I was making frowny faces at the "love," since it really seemed to come from nowhere and wasn't based on anything. Maybe it *is* this different kind of love? And some of it got funneled into Martha wanting to express it romantically since that's the default way of expressing love to non-family-members?

I dunno.

But even with that different kind of love, I still am not exactly sure when or how this all happened. Was it gradual? Was it when she got permanent status? Was it when she got the key to the TARDIS?

Basically, I still have quite a bit of "hmmm" when it comes to this storyline.

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Was it when she got permanent status?

From having a crush on someone to being completely dependant on them for your survival? Yeah.

Well...I was asking about when it went from a crush to undying love and devotion - the kind we saw in Family of Blood and in the finale.

"I looked into the TARDIS, and the TARDIS looked into me." But that's not really the same thing as saying, "I blended with the TARDIS" or "The TARDIS took me over."

Good thing she didn't look into what used to drive the TARDIS, the Eye of Harmony...

Although, nothing happened to the human kid, right? It was just the Master that got sucked in, wasn't it?

Forgot about the kid. But yeah, the Master sure got one, didn't he...

Does my P90 beat your crowbar?

BWAH!!!

Say, are you into Stargate shipping at all???

Not really anymore.

Just asked cause I'm doing the Stargate Relationship of Doom Social Analysis Charts. Like who liked who and was (or not) liked back ranging all the way from don't care up to tuw wuv.

Even if you don't ship anymore you might find the charts, amusing...

Best. Icon. Ever.

Thank you. I'd seen many Rassilon icons and decided I needed one too...

It would fit what the Doctor said about it in Utopia. He talks about how what Rose did with the Vortex was "so human."

Hmmm. I still think they blended, myself, and that what he was talking about was a part that very definitely came from Rose. I would even go so far as to say most of the volition came from Rose, with the TARDIS providing the knowledge of how to channel/control the power. I can't buy a human mind entirely on its own being able to direct that power the way she did -- it'd be like giving her extra limbs and expecting her to run an obstacle course on them right away.

Maybe it *is* this different kind of love? And some of it got funneled into Martha wanting to express it romantically since that's the default way of expressing love to non-family-members?

I really like this thought, in light of the observations about fandom that have been on my mind lately. :-D But I'm with you in not being sure when/why the shift happened. Maybe if I rewatch, I'll be able to tell, but I have no idea when that's likely to be.

I can't buy a human mind entirely on its own being able to direct that power the way she did -- it'd be like giving her extra limbs and expecting her to run an obstacle course on them right away.

Destruction of the Daleks was impressive, but basically amounted to "ROSE SMASH." :D But the scattering of the Bad Wolf was a bit more sophisticated, although Rose had definitely figured out before it was a message to her. However, then you have the screwup with Jack. I'd almost think that if the TARDIS was directing Rose, she wouldn't have created something even the TARDIS considers "wrong." Unless there *is* a purpose to Jack that we haven't seen yet.

Heh. You know, I think I'm thinking if there is this bigger "reason" for Jack that we haven't seen yet, I'd be more inclined to think of the hybrid. But screwing up with Jack, I'm thinking more just Rose.

I really like this thought, in light of the observations about fandom that have been on my mind lately. :-D But I'm with you in not being sure when/why the shift happened. Maybe if I rewatch, I'll be able to tell, but I have no idea when that's likely to be.

I wonder if my whole take on it would change now knowing the ending. I'm not quite sure. Maybe I'd be able to see the change/shift more clearly, knowing it was more idolizing?

Destruction of the Daleks was impressive, but basically amounted to "ROSE SMASH." :D

Well, yeah, but smash how? How did her mind direct pure temporal force with no information? And it was still pretty darn precise -- she erased the Daleks and left everything around them untouched.

Mind you, this is a perennial bugaboo with me. You may have been spared my ranting about, say, how the hell I was supposed to believe that Sam's consciousness could tell a computer to type comprehensible English from inside (never mind that it could even fit into any Earth computer).

So in a case where I can handwave it with a lifeline to the TARDIS' consciousness, I'm going to jump at it. And maybe that's a better way of picturing it -- not that they merged, but they were connected.

Maybe I'd be able to see the change/shift more clearly, knowing it was more idolizing?

Hard to say. But you did call her on the hero-worship thing quite a while ago, if you look back through your posts.

Well, yeah, but smash how? How did her mind direct pure temporal force with no information? And it was still pretty darn precise -- she erased the Daleks and left everything around them untouched.

Hmm. I don't *actually* know - just speculation. But with the Time Vortex running through her head, she really had tapped into all the knowledge of the universe. That it wasn't just power, but also understanding. Not really sure though.

Mind you, this is a perennial bugaboo with me. You may have been spared my ranting about, say, how the hell I was supposed to believe that Sam's consciousness could tell a computer to type comprehensible English from inside (never mind that it could even fit into any Earth computer).

Mwah!

So in a case where I can handwave it with a lifeline to the TARDIS' consciousness, I'm going to jump at it. And maybe that's a better way of picturing it -- not that they merged, but they were connected.

There could have been a bit of that going on as well - I mean, the TARDIS "gets inside your head" so there obviously was still some connection going on. Maybe it amounted to the TARDIS sort of whispering in her ear? I'm still wondering about Jack though.

Hard to say. But you did call her on the hero-worship thing quite a while ago, if you look back through your posts.

And you know, I think back then I was trying to define what *kind* of love Martha had going, and it was the only thing that seemed to fit. But I just had no concept that it would really be Hero Worship and Disciple!Martha. O_O

Hm. I thought the same thing you did. (In fact, my comment ended up sounding a lot like yours.) In my mind, “I looked into the Tardis, and the Tardis looked into me” implied that both Rose and the Tardis played a part in that scene. But I’m willing to accept that canon leans in a more Rose-centric direction.

(Well… mostly. I still like the idea that Rose and the Tardis… blended. And that because of the Tardis’s trans-dimensional nature, Rose always has been and always will be part of her, on a fundamental level. But that’s just my personal canon. <g>)

Canon did seem to imply that it was pretty much Rose. Or at least the Doctor thought it was Rose. And I can't quite see how the TARDIS would create Jack badness - she'd have been able to control things where Rose couldn't.

Yeah, I think the fact that it was Rose made a huge difference. Didn't the Doctor say that if a Time Lord had done what she did, they would have turned into a vengeful God? But not Rose. She just wanted to keep him safe.

I'm trying to figure out *when* it went from a crush on this hot/amazing guy, to "he's my everything." Martha herself kept saying that he never really looked at her, but it quickly ramped up to this everything place.

Gah. It's sort of... creepy when you put it out there like that. We were getting "maybe she's in love with him" anvils in The Lazarus Experiment from Martha's family, though, weren't we? I guess I'd put "he's my everything" at some point between then and Human Nature. She seemed a little crazy in 42 with her deep, deep belief in the Doctor despite barely knowing him.

There's probably a point - it was okay for Rose because she couldn't *really* control it. A Time Lord would have been able to hold onto that power.

The family in The Lazarus Experiment saying the "maybe she's in love" thing, *always* felt a bit off. It was back to trying to really ram things into this character that just weren't that organic, IMO.

As far as Rose and the TARDIS goes, I tend to think it was both of them but it was mostly Rose. It was a bit more than Rose had the power of the Time Vortex under her control, but the TARDIS didn't exactly "inhabit" Rose either, certainly to me Rose was driving.

As far as Martha...it seems to me she had him in god-space by 42, which makes he "I believe in him" make a lot more sense that it did on first watch. When she said it I could not wrap my brain around it because I figured it for a callback to TSP and there was absolutely no way she could believe in him the way he believed in Rose given the radically different levels of time they'd spent together and intimacy of their relationships. And it explains the reverence she shows when he gives her the key, it still annoys me and creeps me out but it makes more sense if you think of her as seeing him on a god-level.

I think it grew between 'Gridlock' and 42 (both episodes where she claims to believe in him) but since she also had this crush on him somehow worship+crush=love. I still don't understand Martha really, I have my doubts I ever will.

Heh. I just replied directing her to the post you made over at your journal.

I think I keep leaning towards the TARDIS not being a part of it really except for giving the Vortex to Rose in the first place, just because of Jack.

And I think Martha had gotten up to that point in 42 - that whole receiving of the key and so on. But how it got from Point A to Point B, I'm still fuzzy on.

I think Rose was ultimately the one calling the shots. In Boom Town, the Doctor says, "the ship's telepathic - like I told you, Rose. Gets inside your head. Translates alien languages. Maybe the raw energy can translate all sorts of thoughts..." Blon became an egg because of her desire for a second chance, which seems to imply that it was Rose's thoughts and desires that controlled the energy as well, that Bad Wolf was a manifestation of her will. It seems like that energy, possibly with help from the TARDIS, carried out that will. It makes sense when you pair it up with how strong her will was at the time, her determination to help the Doctor no matter what the cost. I think her unwavering love and loyalty made her capable of using the power to the extent she did. That's my take on it, anyway.

jedi_of_urth made an interesting post that sort of maps out Martha's journey to 'loving' the Doctor here, if you'd like to check it out.

That does make sense. And they do seem to have canonized it that way now. Sort of. At least the Doctor believes that to be the case - of course, he's not always right.

And thanks . *files away for future reading*

In regards to Rose and the TARDIS I like to think that they both had something to do with the universe but I also believe that Rose had a bit more control over what happen. It goes along with what The Doctor said in Utopia and back in the Parting of the Ways when Rose says "I want you safe, My Doctor" we can see, and hear to an extent, that it's Rose at that exact moment.

Again I like the idea that both Rose and the TARDIS looked into each other and realized that they both wanted to save the Doctor but it was Rose who had the majority of the control.

But even with that different kind of love, I still am not exactly sure when or how this all happened. Was it gradual? Was it when she got permanent status? Was it when she got the key to the TARDIS?

I wouldn't really know how to answer this one because for me I didn't really see the transition myself. I can see it happening when she gets the TARDIS key and becomes a permanent companion. For me it really felt like I had missed an episode where she was just completely in love with the Doctor.

And as far as the TARDIS and Rose, right now I'm even leaning towards the TARDIS actually not really being involved other than to give Rose the Vortex. The TARDIS is infinitely stronger than Rose, and so I just can't see the TARDIS letting Jack happen in that way now.

And as far as Martha - yeah. It really did feel like we were missing an episode. Or three.

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Couple of thoughts...

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