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Combat

This was Fight Club. I've not even seen Fight Club, but I know this was it. The best part was the little fake video that Owen made. It amuses me to think of them out there filming it, Ianto with his little stopwatch, Jack hitting on the extras...

Through this episode I started wondering again about this group of people. Can't they hire an on-staff shrink? These people's mental health is crap.

Captain Jack Harkness

Another Torchwood episode I really liked! While watching the earlier episodes, I realized what I'd been missing - a Jack-centric episode. You really can only take the "man of mystery" thing so far with your audience. There's a difference between a character being mysterious with other characters (see the Doctor) and a character being mysterious with the audience. If you never let the audience see the character, it becomes like UST that goes for 10 seasons, never to be resolved.

Anyway, I really dug this episode because all the characters got in on the action and it's the most non-emo life we've seen from Ianto yet!

The only thing that threw me out of the episode was the Jack/Jack dancing and kiss at the end. Don't get me wrong, I really loved the whole story about this soldier who's being told to live in the now and who wants to be with Jack instead of pretending with this woman. And also on the other side Jack who feels guilty and helpless about him because he knows his fate. It was a lovely story. But the soldier being the one to go to Jack and pull him on the dance floor - today I wouldn't think anything of it. In front of his men in the 1940s? Like I said, it threw me right out of the story. Maybe I've got wrong perceptions about history, but I can't see anyone being that open about it back then. Pulling Jack into a corner? Yes. Dancing in front of everyone? No.

(Also, hello "Bad Wolf" on the wall!)

End of Days

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Son of Beast stomping around Godzilla-style through Cardiff!!! Awesome.

I wonder if the idea was to relate it to the entity in DW's "The Satan Pit," by calling it the Son of Beast. Looked slightly similar, and also was chained up beneath something that was its prison.

Anyway, I got the strong notion that this was Jack's "being kept alive for a reason" purpose from the whole Bad Wolf thing. The only way this creature could have been destroyed was if Jack had been this fixed point in time - really, there wasn't any other way to kill it. Yeah, I'm really thinking more along the lines of it being intentional by Rose. Otherwise there's always coincidence. Big, whopping coincidence.

After it was over, I couldn't help but to get out Utopia from DW and watch a few scenes from there. Jack is just SO different in Torchwood and in DW. He's got a spark when he's around the Doctor. Okay, I'm biased, but on DW he looks like he belongs. In Torchwood, he's an outsider.

Curse you, Torchwood! Jack should have been the companion in S4. HMPH.

Anyway, overall I'd say that people were right - the series got sooo much better as it went along. Also, I've more than had my fill of seeing Rhys' ass, thanks.

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NEVER AGAIN DO I WANT TO SEE RHYS' BARE ASS!

Ugh. Ugh.

I really hope that Abadon relates to the The Beast in Satan Pit. Otherwise, I don't know that it makes sense. I laughed my ass off when it started walking all over Cardiff. It was like a cross between Doctor Who, The Power Rangers, Buffy and Godzilla. I loved it.

Have you started watching the new season yet? I think it's a lot more fun so far. Though we're only two eps in. :)

NEVER AGAIN DO I WANT TO SEE RHYS' BARE ASS!

I'm not sure if they're trying to torture us or what.

I really hope that Abadon relates to the The Beast in Satan Pit. Otherwise, I don't know that it makes sense. I laughed my ass off when it started walking all over Cardiff. It was like a cross between Doctor Who, The Power Rangers, Buffy and Godzilla. I loved it.

I laughed out loud at that. :D TOO funny!

Have you started watching the new season yet? I think it's a lot more fun so far. Though we're only two eps in. :)

I saw the first episode, but nothing further yet. It was entertaining.

Can't they hire an on-staff shrink? These people's mental health is crap.

No kidding.

You finished pretty quickly. I liked TW S1 for the most part although there were times the darkness was too much. I thought Gwen was really excellent in End of Days. I was having some huge trouble with her character after everything she did to Rhys, but her heartbreaking grief in taht episode won me back in a lot of ways.

I was home yesterday, so I kept watching Torchwood. :D

You'd think that End of Days would have been a wake up call to Gwen about Rhys - either to fight to hang on because she loves him, or to let him go because of fallout in her job. But then in 2x01 she said something about marrying him because no one else will. Or something. Gwen's messed up. Doesn't make me hate her character for it though, she just is.

Yes. It seems to be a common thread in the group. They are all quite dysfunctional.

OT: (((Hugs))) you for always listening to the random DW/fandom stuff that flits through my mind even though I am sure you want to roll your eyes at me. You really are one of the bright spots of being in this fandom.

Are you kidding? I'm always spamming people with every little DW thing that flits through my mind. :D

But the soldier being the one to go to Jack and pull him on the dance floor - today I wouldn't think anything of it. In front of his men in the 1940s? Like I said, it threw me right out of the story. Maybe I've got wrong perceptions about history, but I can't see anyone being that open about it back then. Pulling Jack into a corner? Yes. Dancing in front of everyone? No.

Basically? We've been handwaving by saying that everyone else was completely distracted by the white light and the people disappearing into it.

Anyway, I got the strong notion that this was Jack's "being kept alive for a reason" purpose from the whole Bad Wolf thing. The only way this creature could have been destroyed was if Jack had been this fixed point in time - really, there wasn't any other way to kill it. Yeah, I'm really thinking more along the lines of it being intentional by Rose. Otherwise there's always coincidence. Big, whopping coincidence.

Me, too! I like to think that Rose maybe saw some future things she shouldn't have (maybe why she didn't remember any of it afterwards) and saved Jack in that particular way for that reason.

Curse you, Torchwood! Jack should have been the companion in S4. HMPH.

I still agree with this, even though TW is much much better this series. *sigh*

Anyway, overall I'd say that people were right - the series got sooo much better as it went along.

It's like they were finding their way throughout series 1, and didn't have enough time to really think of all the consequences of what they were doing.

Also, I've more than had my fill of seeing Rhys' ass, thanks.

Amen to that one. If that never happens again, I'll be thrilled.

Basically? We've been handwaving by saying that everyone else was completely distracted by the white light and the people disappearing into it.

Ah.

Me, too! I like to think that Rose maybe saw some future things she shouldn't have (maybe why she didn't remember any of it afterwards) and saved Jack in that particular way for that reason.

It really makes sense. The world would have been completely destroyed otherwise. I know that gets said a lot - but in this case there really were *no* other options.

I still agree with this, even though TW is much much better this series. *sigh*

There was so much energy between them at the end of S3! I *loved* it!

It's like they were finding their way throughout series 1, and didn't have enough time to really think of all the consequences of what they were doing.

Yeah, I think so.

Amen to that one. If that never happens again, I'll be thrilled.

I swear they want to punish us.

Combat--could it have been slashier between Owen and that guy without actually getting into the shtupping? I think not!

I handwave the Jack/Jack scene via the Sunnydale Effect. The Rift opened right in that room, people can't deal, they toss the homoeroticism in with the Impossible Thing and call it good. Voila! I also think that episode is JB's best acting work to date. I loved the relationship between Jack and Tosh in this episode, too--very brother/sister and sweet. Jack needs to have at least one relationship in his life that's not sexually-charged.

"End of Days" felt more like a BtVS episode to me, only with more boykissing. I liked the resolution, with the team being rather sorry they killed Jack and actually pulling together, but overall the thing was a bit of a wash and needlessly messianic. I mean, three days dead before rising? Why don't we just start calling Gwen "Mary Magdalene" and be done with it?

Yet I'm still unreasonably fond of the show and the team's dysfunctional little asses.

Combat--could it have been slashier between Owen and that guy without actually getting into the shtupping? I think not!

Nope. :D

I handwave the Jack/Jack scene via the Sunnydale Effect. The Rift opened right in that room, people can't deal, they toss the homoeroticism in with the Impossible Thing and call it good. Voila!

HEH.

I also think that episode is JB's best acting work to date. I loved the relationship between Jack and Tosh in this episode, too--very brother/sister and sweet. Jack needs to have at least one relationship in his life that's not sexually-charged.

I agree on both counts. First - the thing with real!Jack was very complex on Jack's part. Attraction, sure. But the interesting thing is that I don't think Jack fell in love with him. It was more of a connection through guilt and wanting to make sure his last night on Earth was the best it could be. Not that Jack wasn't willing, but like I said, it was very complex. And JB really sold it all to me.

And I really liked what he had with Tosh. Like you said, it's *not* a sexual relationship and I think that's VERY good for Jack. Probably even better for him at this point than a sexual one.

I mean, three days dead before rising? Why don't we just start calling Gwen "Mary Magdalene" and be done with it?

I think I've finally cracked. I cackled at that, just like I did when the Doctor ascended in Voyage of the Damned, in a "you people really are cracked-out squirrels, aren't you?" way.

It's funny you mention Rhys' butt. tsukara and I were at a filk con this weekend and wrote a song about Torchwood, called The Worst Kept Secret of Cardiff, and it basically makes a lot of fun of the whole show, each character in turn, but one of the recurring themes is how much we hate seeing Rhys' butt.

And that we want Owen to stop having sex, though Jack/Ianto and really Jack/anyone else action is still ok.

HA! I'm not exactly sure why they keep showing his butt. Maybe because they're "edgy," which means they need to show *someone's* butt. They keep choosing the wrong butt, though.

No kidding! Don't you think we could maybe see... oh I don't know JACK'S butt, or Ianto's. I'll even tolerate Owen's to a certain extent before I drown myself in my tea. But Rhys. Oh ye gods does it have to be Rhys?

I'm fussy. I'd like to see Jack butt, thanks. The rest they can keep in their pants.

Yeah I guess I'm somewhat with you on that one, but I'm thinking Jack doesn't go wandering around the hub with his pants off all that often. He likes his belt/suspenders combo too much to be without them for long.

DAMN HIM!

No kidding! So unfortunately, I think the only way we're gonna get Jack butt is if he's having sex with someone or something ("anything with a post code"... oh Jack). Or perhaps a nice morning after scene, where he's making tea for sleeping Ianto in return for all the times Ianto's made tea for him.

At least a girl can hope!

I liked the Jack/Jack story a lot, but I was thrown out of it a lot as well with the snog and dance at the end. I can only suspend my disbelief for some things for so long.

AND JACK IS DEPRESSED WITH HIS DOCTOR AND ROSE AND FORGETS HOW TO HIT ON EVERYTHING. THE SOLUTION IS CLEARLY TO COME BACK AS A FULL TIME COMPANION.

I ALSO HAVE ELABORATE THEORIES INVOLVING BAD WOLF, JACK AND ROSE COMING BACK. I THINK THEY SHOULD ALL BE CONNECTED AND END WITH A GROUP HUG. I NEED A TEN/ROSE/JACK HUGGING ICON.

I would TOTALLY take a group hug.

I need it. :(

I liked the Jack/Jack story a lot, but I was thrown out of it a lot as well with the snog and dance at the end. I can only suspend my disbelief for some things for so long.

Yeah. I was really liking it up until then. That moment with the two of them on the couch seemed perfect.

AND JACK IS DEPRESSED WITH HIS DOCTOR AND ROSE AND FORGETS HOW TO HIT ON EVERYTHING. THE SOLUTION IS CLEARLY TO COME BACK AS A FULL TIME COMPANION.

I know! No mojo!

I CAN ONLY REMEMBER HIM FLIRTING WITH IANTO LIKE ONCE. HE BROKE.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Son of Beast stomping around Godzilla-style through Cardiff!!! Awesome.

I actually thought the Son of Beast stuff was rather anti-climactic. I like the idea of Jack being the only one who could defeat this thing, but it all happened too fast for me. I thought the build up was really good, and I liked the mutiny; it was rather poetic that their selfishness was the one thing that finally brought them together as a team. But the Son of Beast came out of nowhere, and I wish we could've learned more about Bilis and his special brand of time travel. You know? I should know not to over-think Torchwood.

Yeah, I'm really thinking more along the lines of it being intentional by Rose.

I'd like to think so. I want the Bad Wolf stuff that keeps cropping up to be more than just fan service. It's my little wish that S4 will wrap all these loose ends up in a nice pretty bow. When I think of TPotW, I think it just might be possible. Then I remember all the headdesking brought on by TLotTL and think I'm just setting myself up for disappointment.

Curse you, Torchwood! Jack should have been the companion in S4. HMPH.

YES! They would've went on grand adventures and wound up trapped together in dungeons, reminiscing about all the fun they had with Rose, and after the shedding of many manly tears, they would've said "to hell with this" and found their way back to Rose.

I want to watch the Doctor, Rose, and Jack show FOR THE REST OF TIME.

But the Son of Beast came out of nowhere, and I wish we could've learned more about Bilis and his special brand of time travel. You know?

Yeah, it all happened really quick. And after introducing Bilis in the last episode, it would have been nice to get a lot more on him in this one.

When I think of TPotW, I think it just might be possible. Then I remember all the headdesking brought on by TLotTL and think I'm just setting myself up for disappointment.

*nods* It would be fantastic if a lot of stuff came full circle this year, but...I don't think I've got my hopes up, really.

YES! They would've went on grand adventures and wound up trapped together in dungeons, reminiscing about all the fun they had with Rose, and after the shedding of many manly tears, they would've said "to hell with this" and found their way back to Rose.

\o/

I want to watch the Doctor, Rose, and Jack show FOR THE REST OF TIME.

I really could too.

After it was over, I couldn't help but to get out Utopia from DW and watch a few scenes from there. Jack is just SO different in Torchwood and in DW. He's got a spark when he's around the Doctor. Okay, I'm biased, but on DW he looks like he belongs. In Torchwood, he's an outsider.

But what I love about Utopia is that they give an actual REASON for him being different in TW. I mean, waiting around for loads of years on Earth, waiting for the Doctor to show up so he can find out why he left him behind? It makes sense that he's less bouncy in TW. So, in S2, he feels a little happier to me, hopefully because he got a little closure.

...or maybe because he got to make out with JM. :D:D:D

I do like that they finally gave us that in Utopia as well. But hopefully he will be more old!Jack than S1 Jack going forward. S1 Jack was a bit boring.

Oh man, I hope so as well.

So after seeing the whole first series, what are you opinions on the characters?

Jack: They really need to drop a lot of the "mystery man" thing and get him back to DW!Jack, and then I'll be happy.

Gwen: She's pretty messed up already, and I have the feeling she'll be just like everyone else in the end. So to me it's interesting watch a new person slide down this slope, just like you know everyone else has.

Owen: Eh. I know they did the most with his character over the series, but... I don't know. He still seems like a bratty junior high kid by the end.

Ianto: I've heard he's already being given more in S2, which is good. That whole Lurch act doesn't make for a very interesting character.

Tosh: She's my favorite. (Next to Jack, of course. Well, DW Jack.) Probably because her character seems more real and less caricature. (Which is generally had to say about "the computer genius" that every show has.)

Myfanwy: COMPLETELY UNDERUSED.

I agree with you about Gwen. But she's so universally hated in fandom. I think I appear and say I like her more than I generally do just to be contrary. Same with Owen. hahaha.

And Ianto is def. getting better in Season 2. I hope this pattern continues.

Tosh was WAY underused. I really hope she gets to develop more as a character in the rest of season 2.

And also, I so agree about Jack. He's just so much more... happy and fun on Doctor Who.

I agree with you about Gwen. But she's so universally hated in fandom. I think I appear and say I like her more than I generally do just to be contrary. Same with Owen. hahaha.

I've heard that fandom has a raging Gwen-hate going, but I'm not exactly sure why. She's a bit fucked up and does some very crappy things, but that's exactly every single other character on Torchwood.

I don't really love Gwen or hate her.

Tosh was WAY underused. I really hope she gets to develop more as a character in the rest of season 2.

I'm all for more Tosh!

And also, I so agree about Jack. He's just so much more... happy and fun on Doctor Who.

Very much so.

he's a bit fucked up and does some very crappy things, but that's exactly every single other character on Torchwood.

Exactly. None of them are saints. They all screw up and doing pretty reprehensible things. Yet Gwen is the victim of a lot of hate. So I think I like her more than I truly do, just to be contrary.

I wonder what it is about her. On second thought, I probably don't want to know.

I can tell you why I don't like Gwen.

It's not so much her character but the way she is used.

She's portrayed by the writers as being the heart of the group-all compassionate and in touch with human feelings...which is such bullshit, to be blunt. Between cheating on Rhys, RETCONNING HIM (which was unforgivable in my eyes) and turning on Jack, I think she's been selfish and selfcentered enough to be an absolute hypocrite.

But, like I said, it's more the way the writers use her. I can handle her being the 'heart' occasionally. She did it well in the first two episodes and she did it well in TKKS but most of the time it's like we're being forcefed with 'Gwen is so wonderful'. Then, to make matters worse, she tend to be front and centre with every plot. She's the one who's always kidnapped/held hostage, the one who hears Jack's worries, the one how get the vital clue from the Alien of the Week...watching her is like reading a fic with a Mary Sue.

Sorry, got all rantish there!

S2 is definately shaping up to be better than S1!

but most of the time it's like we're being forcefed with 'Gwen is so wonderful'.

Really? Most the time it seemed like she was just sorta there. Neither good or bad. At least to me. Yeah, she made more emotion-based decisions, but if the writers wanted me to think that Gwen is awesome beyond all awesome, they kinda failed.

the one who hears Jack's worries, the one how get the vital clue from the Alien of the Week...watching her is like reading a fic with a Mary Sue.

I did notice how she's always the one that Jack confides in - what small amount he does. And now that I think about it, it probably would have felt a bit more natural to have that kind of pre-existing relationship with Ianto. (Although then they probably couldn't have had the Cyberwoman thing if there'd been that kind of relationship going.) Or that kind of pre-existing relationship with someone.

But I don't think I noticed that she's always been the one to find the solution to the problem. Not saying she hasn't been, just that it never stuck out at me for some reason.

Getting back to the confidence relationship, I wonder if they tried to replicate Rose with the Doctor, in that the audience was introduced to and learned about the Doctor through Rose. Doesn't really work with Gwen and Jack though, considering that most people coming into the show know more about Jack than anyone else.

but on DW he looks like he belongs. In Torchwood, he's an outsider.

That is so weird because I feel the exact opposite. I love Jack to bits but I think he's better suited on Torchwood. I think my love for TW may be overshadowing DW... how in the hell did that happened?!?! I need Rose back stat!

Just goes to show - 20 people watch the same show and you'll get 20 different takes on it. :D

My friend and I just wrote a Torchwood filk, wherein we mention twice that we've seen quite enough of Rhys' butt, thank you very much. It was a well-liked sentiment.

And I agree with you wholy about the weirdness of 1944!Jack pulling other Jack onto the dance floor. That was far too out-of-era for a 1940s pilot.

My friend and I just wrote a Torchwood filk, wherein we mention twice that we've seen quite enough of Rhys' butt, thank you very much. It was a well-liked sentiment.

I just can't imagine anyone being all "Woo! Rhys ass again!"

And I agree with you wholy about the weirdness of 1944!Jack pulling other Jack onto the dance floor. That was far too out-of-era for a 1940s pilot.

It reminded me a bit of the S3 Dalek episode in DW. They kinda made history more neat and pretty so they could tell their story. It still throws me.

I just can't imagine anyone being all "Woo! Rhys ass again!"

Yeah, me neither. That an have to watch Owen have even more sex...Bah. Too much with the gratuitous nudity, I think. As if they're going "Look at us, we're Torchwood, definately not DW!".

They kinda made history more neat and pretty so they could tell their story.

Another reason I hate the S2 episode GitF. I mean, never mind that life was getting pretty har out there for the peasants, that wars were being fought and revolution was brewing while the aristocrasts daned in their newly-finished palace of Versailles, as longas the Doctor got to hang out with Madame De Pompadour! But, then again, it's DW. I don't really expect itto be entirely historically accurate....

Yeah, me neither. That an have to watch Owen have even more sex...Bah. Too much with the gratuitous nudity, I think. As if they're going "Look at us, we're Torchwood, definately not DW!".

I think it might have been

goldy_dollar to say that Torchwood is an example of how an adult rating does not necessarily equal mature. So, so true.

(Also, that reminds me of the Dead Ringers parody. MWAH.)

Another reason I hate the S2 episode GitF. I mean, never mind that life was getting pretty har out there for the peasants, that wars were being fought and revolution was brewing while the aristocrasts daned in their newly-finished palace of Versailles, as longas the Doctor got to hang out with Madame De Pompadour! But, then again, it's DW. I don't really expect itto be entirely historically accurate....

I'm really clueless about French history, so that never hit my radar. But like you said - DW's not really somewhere to go to get good history. Heh.

...an adult rating does not necessarily equal mature.

Word. So very true. Though it seems to have gotten a bit better this season. At least, there's been no sex yet...

But like you said - DW's not really somewhere to go to get good history.

The only really cool historical bit for me was the potrait that is behind the TARDIS at the end is based off of a potrait of Madame de Pompadour that is hanging in the Portland Art Museum, in my hometown where, ironically enough, we went for an AP European History excursion.

OMG! I remember things about both those last two episodes. HOORRAYYYYYYYY.

I think it's because I liked them. And also, there was a giant demon-y thing that tried to suck out Jack's soul and that amused me.

*waves pompoms*

And Jack had his version of Bad Wolf/Jesus!Doctor! It wasn't as cool as the others, but you gotta start somewhere. Okay, "cool" might not be the best word with the Doctor there...

And!

After it was over, I couldn't help but to get out Utopia from DW and watch a few scenes from there. Jack is just SO different in Torchwood and in DW. He's got a spark when he's around the Doctor. Okay, I'm biased, but on DW he looks like he belongs. In Torchwood, he's an outsider.

TOTALLY agree. I think what keeps me from really liking TW is because I don't really like who TW!Jack is. There's no charm. He's just... mean and embittered and not in an endearing kicked-puppy Doctor kind of way.

On the other hand, I really adore Gwen, which I think puts me at odds with half of TW fandom. BUT I LIKE TO BE CONTRARY! And I'm convinced that Jack sees some of Rose in Gwen - or, maybe... more that he *wants* to see some of Rose in Gwen, and that's why he keeps trying to push her into that "normal life" thing.

Okay. I've just thought way too hard about TW. Crap.

TOTALLY agree. I think what keeps me from really liking TW is because I don't really like who TW!Jack is. There's no charm. He's just... mean and embittered and not in an endearing kicked-puppy Doctor kind of way.

Yes! I keep trying to figure out which characters I really like on Torchwood, and it's usually, "Oh, and of course Jack. Do I like Jack? Of course I like Jack. Really? Yes."

But you know, if I didn't know Jack from Doctor Who, I really don't know if I would care about him on Torchwood.

On the other hand, I really adore Gwen, which I think puts me at odds with half of TW fandom. BUT I LIKE TO BE CONTRARY!

You rebel!

And I'm convinced that Jack sees some of Rose in Gwen - or, maybe... more that he *wants* to see some of Rose in Gwen, and that's why he keeps trying to push her into that "normal life" thing.

I didn't really see the Rose thing, but for some reason I kept thinking that Jack wants Gwen to replace him someday. Which is really a weird notion, I know.

Yes! I keep trying to figure out which characters I really like on Torchwood, and it's usually, "Oh, and of course Jack. Do I like Jack? Of course I like Jack. Really? Yes."

But you know, if I didn't know Jack from Doctor Who, I really don't know if I would care about him on Torchwood.

Yeah. Every time I see Jack on DW now, I'm always surprised by how much I like him. Have you seen 2x02 yet? UGH. I want TW!Jack to go live on a desert island somewhere.

for some reason I kept thinking that Jack wants Gwen to replace him someday. Which is really a weird notion, I know.

That IS kind of weird. But, then... Jack does have to get his head all swollen and plopped in a tank, so maybe he's just thinking ahead!

Edited 2008-01-30 06:27 (UTC)

Yeah. Every time I see Jack on DW now, I'm always surprised by how much I like him. Have you seen 2x02 yet? UGH. I want TW!Jack to go live on a desert island somewhere.

No, I haven't seen it yet.

That IS kind of weird. But, then... Jack does have to get his head all swollen and plopped in a tank, so maybe he's just thinking ahead!

HEH. I really have no idea where that notion came from. It's certainly not canon, just some wacky notion.

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