*cries*

[mrv3000]

My brain has been slowly dribbling out my ears since Saturday. Which...might have been obvious, or might not. I thought about waiting to flail at it until after the 2nd episode aired to see how it was resolved, but then I got to thinking. If I flail at this particular thing after the episode, is there a possibility I'll be written off as one of those rabid shippers just trying to find fault with everything? Oh hell yeah. So getting this out now because it honestly has nothing to do with shipping or not shipping.

This is brain dribbling on the level of SG-1's Moebius. Here and here for examples of my Moebius-related madness. Moebius is STILL a dirty word with me, unless you can quickly distract me with geek!Sam and geek!Daniel and make no mention of killing off the real SG-1.



For this, I could care less if River is the Doctor's wife, lover, friend, Jack-style companion, daughter, Rose, Romana, the Master, the Rani, K-9, the TARDIS, or the Doctor himself whose ego finally split in half in order to love itself properly.

This relates to visiting River out of order.

Why? WHY? FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, WHY?

That? That right there is a reaper-filled paradox just begging to happen. I don't care if there is a journal to help keep things straight, there's bound to be a slip-up sooner or later, which would...I don't even know what would happen if there was a paradox in the Doctor's timeline.

Does the Doctor turn stupid in the future? Did he learn absolutely nothing from "Father's Day" when he thought he was in complete control when screwing with timelines?

WHY does he not simply visit his wife, lover, friend, Jack-style companion, daughter, Rose, Romana, the Master, the Rani, K-9, the TARDIS, or the Doctor himself whose ego finally split in half in order to love itself properly IN ORDER?

Okay, so possibly the TARDIS has gone wonky. If that's the case, shouldn't he just avoid someone who could muck up timelines? You know, exactly like how Jack didn't talk to Rose while she was growing up even though he probably would have killed to? Or if this is a case of vast undying love between them, WHY then wouldn't she stay with him or him with her? Although that's starting to get off on a tangent. My main brain damage is resulting from this out-of-order visiting, which seems frequent and routine.

WHAT????

*FLOPS*

If someone can give me a plausible scenario for the out-of-order part? I'd love to hear it. Visiting someone? Sure! The Doctor's already visiting Martha. (Chronologically, thanks.) Visiting someone out of order for kicks and giggles? WTFH?

Comments

[misssara11.livejournal.com]

THIS HAS BEEN MY EXACT PROBLEM THIS WHOLE TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!

She's essentially making sure her whole past DOESN'T happen!!!

This is the show that makes it very clear you can't know too much about your own future! That it's VERY dangerous to cross your own timeline!

IT MAKES NO SENSE!!!

*clings to another person who sees this like I do*

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

[grbggrl.livejournal.com]

Oh, she's not the only one. I don't get it either. Which is why I'm more and more hoping for the "she's actually just a psycho who has convinced herself she knows him when she really doesn't" idea to actually be what happens.

[honorh.livejournal.com]

I think it's established that things don't always go straight in the Doctor's timeline. "Blink" proved that much. Queen Elizabeth I's ire at something the Doctor hadn't done yet in "The Shakespeare Code" is another example. Then there was the whole thing with Jenny, which still gives me headaches.

In this case, River Song sent him a message on the psychic paper. For whatever reason, it reached him in his personal timeline's past. Thus, it's not exactly his fault that this one's out of order. Presumably, when he meets her again for the first time, he'll take steps to prevent a paradox. The journal seems to be part of that. If they're both hopping around in time, which is possible, given her century, they need some way of keeping things straight.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Okay, the accidental stuff I can completely understand - stuff like the QEI. And even self-fulfilling prophesy type stuff like from Blink.

And meeting in Silence in the Library - obviously not his fault. But when River pulls out the book with a "where are we now?" and starts rattling off things they've done - it's obvious the Doctor's been hopping around in her timeline for whatever reason, so much so it's become a routine for them. And that's what's making my brain break - the future timeline hopping. I absolutely cannot figure out WHY he would do that when it could result in so many very bad things.

[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

Given that SM seems to be borrowing somewhat heavily from TTTW, he seems to have forgotten the very important reason those visits are out of order: the time traveler in question doesn't have any control over it!

Either this is going to end up being some seriously sloppy-assed writing (insert my lack of surprise here), or River is lying her ass off.

The only other potential scenario which might explain such a thing, to my mind and which you may have seen me mention elsewhere, is that the journal is real, and it's Rose's chronicles of the Doctor visiting her in Pete's World, because for some reason he couldn't bring her back here but when he's able to find little pockets and eddies that allow him to visit her, he does so. Given the unstable nature of such phenomena, he's visiting them in chronological order as far as he's concerned, but where they come out in Rose's life is out of order. How would the journal end up here? The simplest explanation would be that on one of his visits he arrived to find that Rose had died, at which point their kid or her younger sibling or Mickey's kid or something gives him the journal. He doesn't open it because he knows he oughtn't, and at some point it's lost or stolen (most likely stolen, probably by RS herself).

[pluckyyounggirl.livejournal.com]

We might be sharing a brain. Heh!

I like the idea that it's Rose's journal. A lot. I just don't want to cling to it too much because, well, it's a SM episode.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Given that SM seems to be borrowing somewhat heavily from TTTW, he seems to have forgotten the very important reason those visits are out of order: the time traveler in question doesn't have any control over it!

I've never read TTTW, but after people started talking about it in relationship to this episode I dug up a synopsis. And that's exactly what it feels like, and makes me weep a bit at the 1) paradoxes potentially created, 2) wondering why the Doctor can no longer travel in order, 3) flailing at the fact that people can travel with him, and 4) having to come to the conclusion the Doctor must have developed anti-reaper spray.

Either this is going to end up being some seriously sloppy-assed writing (insert my lack of surprise here), or River is lying her ass off.

I'm still putting my money on something happening at the end which will push the reset button, meaning we'll never find out what was going on. THIS IS GOING TO BE MY DW MOEBIUS.

The only other potential scenario which might explain such a thing, to my mind and which you may have seen me mention elsewhere, is that the journal is real, and it's Rose's chronicles of the Doctor visiting her in Pete's World, because for some reason he couldn't bring her back here but when he's able to find little pockets and eddies that allow him to visit her, he does so.

That still makes me woe a bit, but at least it would be LOGICAL when it comes to the out-of-order thing.

[pluckyyounggirl.livejournal.com]

I don't understand it either. Thus, I have the same brain dribbles.

The only (lazy) explanation I can possibly come up with is that it's not in his or her control when he comes back to her or whether she can travel with him. Like in The Time Traveler's Wife. Which would make sense, since the plot has obviously been inspired by that. But even in the book, she knew him from when she was little... so, I don't know, maybe it's a matter of reversed roles.

It still doesn't really make sense though. Unless it's all a con, and she really doesn't know the Doctor, and how he thinks and acts, at all. *helpless shrug*

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I could possibly see the TARDIS not being in control. But if that was the case, I still say he'd either 1) avoid seeing her completely (it's not like the Doctor hasn't made tough choices before), 2) had her come with him, 3) or stayed with her if deep undying love was involved.

HMPH!

[a-white-rain.livejournal.com]

IC and coherncy in Moffat? LOL

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

*brain snaps in half*

[nandamai]

*does not mock*

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I know, I know! You all pointed and laughed when I fell for a time travel show. ME. And now it's finally biting me in the ass.

[larissa-j.livejournal.com]

OMGSTFU

MOFFAT R GENIUS N UR 2 STUPID 2 UDRSTAND TEH STRY

N U H8 RVR CUZ U SHPR

[skybound2]

*crosses eyes*

*uncrosses eyes*

*stands on head*

*holds up mirror*

Caps-locked computer speech makes my brain hurt o_0

[skybound2]

I honestly don't think that any of this is as straight forward as we think it is. I really think that it's going to be revealed that the book she is caring around is actually the Doctor's Biography from the library, and she doesn't actually know him, but has rather used the book to learn about him, in an effort to froward some plot-line that I am as yet unsure of. I think the whole "where are we now?" thing was done deliberately on her part to figure out what has and has not happened to him yet, so that she would know what buttons could and could not be pushed in her effort to further the still-unknown-plot-line.

I've watched the episode a few times now, and I really do not think that there is any other explanation for the inconsistencies that we've been shown, or for the Doctor to make such a big deal about them being in the biography section and their being spoilers within the books. It's all just being laid on too thick, and I think that is to prep us for the reveal of the upcoming-as-yet-unidentified-plot-line.

If it's done well, it could be awesome, and totally re-congeal your brain so it stops dribbling ;-P

[larissa-j.livejournal.com]

That could be accurate since she's an archaeologist and the sonic screwdriver looks ancient.

[greenpear.livejournal.com]

I just got a chance to watch it last night (work and all that). All that Timey-Whimey stuff makes my head hurt and I wonder if they're got River lined up as a future companion. But most likely I believe as others here have said the Doctor will take steps to prevent meeting her in the future thus destroying her own past. See, makes my brain hurt.

And there WILL be fish in the pond...

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

OMG. There will be fish, won't there? *SOBS*

[joyfulfeather.livejournal.com]

It makes no sense! He never took Rose home out of order -- he was late sometimes, but never early. While "early" keeps being a problem this season, I don't see him making a habit of it. He's not that careless!

What really bugs me about the journal is that when he didn't recognize a scenario she described, she went, "Oh, must be earlier then!" and flipped back in her journal. If they're really popping in and out of each other's timelines, "earlier" for one of them has no relevance for the other! Theoretically, the third time she met him could have been the 20th time for him, and the fourth was the 2nd. I guess she could be keeping the journal in what would be chronological order for him and inserts pages as necessary...

Or, oo, maybe it's the Doctor's journal. From some time in his future when he decides to start chronicling his travels. She's gotten ahold of it and is now using it for her own purposes. That would fit with the con or the deranged fangirl ideas.

I know, the flipping backwards in the journal probably isn't a clue, it's just the actress and/or director not thinking it through. It mostly just points up how little sense the journal thing makes in general.

This episode either has the laziest writing/thought processes or the most devious. Guess we'll see when part 2 airs.

[larissa-j.livejournal.com]

Why doesn't anyone have a problem with the journal itself?

adfjlkadfjklfajkl

Remember Captain Jack 'flash' with all the gadgets in the 51st century? Would he still be using a journal with paper?

Sure the library planet is made up of books but why would a person traveling around in time and space carry something as heavy as a book to chronicle their journeys? She's got a sonic screwdriver and a squareness gun but the best she can do to avoid a paradox is a diary?

::headdesk::

[chloris67.livejournal.com]

This relates to visiting River out of order.

This is exactly why I don't think she's for real. The Doctor simply would not do that and even if there was some problem with the tardis and he ended up in the wrong time relative to River, she would know enough not to start talking about the details of their future relationship.

Also, Martha, with no practice what so ever, managed to get the proper Doctor for her timeline on the first try.

*shakes head* I just don't buy it.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I just...yeah. I just don't know if this is going to be another "sweet hell, how does JesusTinkerbell make sense???" moment (which it could - it's Doctor Who, after all) or if it really will turn into something clever.

[goldy-dollar.livejournal.com]

Maybe future!Doctor is really high?

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

*SPORFLES*

[goldy-dollar.livejournal.com]

Also, Moebius really made NO SENSE AT ALL. Thanks for drudging up those memories. *shudders*

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

The video tape should not have existed!!!11!

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

Think about it.
If she meets him before he meets her, he doesn't know who she is. So, he might believe everything she says, mostly if she shows him that she knows him very well and that he can trust her (by telling everyone she trusts him with her life, by showing him her/his screwdriver, ...)...
However, she did say that "she lies, she is always lying", didn't she?
I think River has a hidden agenda.
I think she met the Doctor too early ON PURPOSE, so he didn't know who she was and she had a chance to manipulate him.
Maybe she wants something from the library, or from the computer/little girl...
But she is manipulating him.
Look at Donna's reaction to River. She is not jealous, but she obviously doesn't trust her. And Donna is ALWAYS right. Well, maybe not always, but I'd say she's got a good instinct.
Then, if River was really so important to the Doctor (his wife, favoutire companion at the time, ...) why isn't she with him?
This character just feels wrong.
The more I think about her, the more I can see her as a potential ennemy.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

That's not impossible, I'll say that.

I just keep getting the feeling that it's going to be a WYSIWYG possibly with a reset button, so they'll never have to actually explain it.

*TWITCHES*

[poohmusings.livejournal.com]

I'd say it's pretty impressive this is the first time your brain is dribbling out your ears when dealing with a time travel show. I think I had issues way back in early S1, in the first ep that went back in time.

Moebius is STILL a dirty word with me

BUT I MADE YOU A DIAGRAM.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I'd say it's pretty impressive this is the first time your brain is dribbling out your ears when dealing with a time travel show. I think I had issues way back in early S1, in the first ep that went back in time.

I KNOW!

Before things would get cracky, sure, but I bought the logic behind it. But with this element? WAH. And I get the feeling it only got thrown in there because they thought The Time Traveler's Wife was neat, not stopping to think that that "universe" has a whole different set of rules.

BUT I MADE YOU A DIAGRAM.

*smooch* But you never solved the problem with the existence of the video tape, right? *wiggles eyebrows*

[shinyopals.livejournal.com]

XD

Explanation 1: River is not as she seems.

Explanation 2: Moffat is writing.

'Nuff said, really.

the Doctor himself whose ego finally split in half in order to love itself properly

Maybe it's just me... but I would SO watch that.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Explanation 1: River is not as she seems.

Explanation 2: Moffat is writing.

'Nuff said, really.

*SIGHS*

Maybe it's just me... but I would SO watch that.

Me. Too. :D

[tazza-di-jo.livejournal.com]

I am even more confused than everyone else on this post, because I actually got the impression that River Song was genuine in her affection for the Doctor, and honest about what little she said about her and him. Which is worse, because the conwoman explanation makes much more sense (and would allow me to hate her...)
She calls for him through the psychic paper, right? (how the hell does one do that anyway?) Maybe, they have an agreement (for whatever reason: debt, ex-companion, ex-chickadee, etc.) that she can call him whenever she needs him. But don't they have phones in the 51st century? Martha's worked just fine, no early surprises...
THIS WHOLE PLOT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!!!

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

See, I can deal with the psychic paper - after all, the Face of Boe did it in New Earth so this isn't unprecidented. I can even deal with the fact that she is what they're implying - some sort of future wife/lover/significant other. What I can't get past is the out-of-order thing. They could have just as easily left out that "where are we now" element by doing the in order thing, simply saying 'great seeing you again, lover!,' and still have River having her "oh shit!" moment when she realized this was earlier!Doctor.

I keep feeling like they threw it in there because it was "neat" and it's going to wind up being the death of me.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

I've got nothing. And I'm pretty cranky about the whole situation. None of it makes any sense at all. *grumbles*

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

It really really REALLY doesn't. GRAWR.

[effulgent-girl.livejournal.com]

Yeah, big plot hole. I have a theory that she dies and it erases her past and future because of something to do with the library and the whole "real world" thing that was going on with the little girl. Or maybe I just haven't had enough sleep. Would fix the time thing though.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I keep getting reset vibes too. Not sure she'd actually die, but on the other hand this show LOVES to point out that the Doctor's relationships are all doomed.

[janetmaca.livejournal.com]

Oh great, now my brain is dribbling out my ears. I should make you come here and clean up the mess, just so I can sit here longer and go "Bwah? What? Huh? Doy"

I really just figured River is evil (or maybe it's just me hating characters named River).

Hey, maybe the Doctor will go fishing at the end of the next episode but figure out there are fish in a lake where there were none before. *grins*

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Oh great, now my brain is dribbling out my ears. I should make you come here and clean up the mess, just so I can sit here longer and go "Bwah? What? Huh? Doy"

HEH HEH HEH.

I really just figured River is evil (or maybe it's just me hating characters named River).

I don't know what to think. I just want a non-brain-exploding reason for the timeline hopping.

Hey, maybe the Doctor will go fishing at the end of the next episode but figure out there are fish in a lake where there were none before. *grins*

AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!