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- Ah, so we've wound up in the Matrix. :D
- Hmmm. So...the Doctor took River to the same place as where he wound up with Jack and Martha? Why would he do that?
- Ooooh. River whispering the secret - the thing that will tell us they've got a very deep bond without having to go through all that pesky development. *snickers*
- The Doctor tinted the visor so that the swarm might think it's already inside? HA! What? :D
- Hmm. So how did Miss Evangelista get into the Matrix?
- How'd these things get into the books in the first place?
- Okay, what's up with River talking about the Doctor being the Doctor "someday?" Erm... *squints* Has he *really* changed that much by the time she runs into him? Huh.
- Take the red pill, Donna! Or is it the blue pill?
- Oh, that's a nice little twist. Mr. Bad Corporate Man had a secret about his aunt - dying as a child but installed into a computer to live on and read every book written.
- Ah. Okay. So we've got a bit of self-fulfilling prophesy going on. The screwdriver was given at the last moment - the last time she saw him - and for all we know he could have done the same about his name. Gotta keep those timelines correct and all. Obviously doesn't rule out the possibility of "I WUV YOU FOREVER AND EVER," although apparently the Doctor simply visits her, taking her on trips, then bringing her back. Hmmmmm. You know, I'm gonna go with Jack-style companion on this one. Flirty, definte deep affection for each other, but that's about it.
- SHAZBOT. They KEPT the whole visiting River out-of-order, which... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! I SUPPOSE the Doctor knew he could get away with it, considering it all seemed like a closed loop in the end. But still. HMPH. I was hoping they'd erase that.
- Oh, Doctor. *pats* Don't you know that you're doomed to be whumped? Whole new characters will be created and given instant deep connections to you just so that you will HURT. But at least he was able to put River in the Matrix and she gets a nice life. She seems happy, at least.
- Erm...snapping the fingers to get in the TARDIS? Okay. :D
Overall...it was okay. The Donna moments were pretty good, and I did like the twist in that it resulted in that one guy not being as much of a jackass as he was made out to be with the whole paper signing. But I am getting a bit tired of the instantaneous connections given to the Doctor (and Donna got a dose as well this episode). You know, it IS possible for me to care about characters if they're not related to or in a relationship with one of the main characters.
As far as next week - so we're getting a Companion-Lite episode next week? Huh.
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Hmmm. So...the Doctor took River to the same place as where he wound up with Jack and Martha? Why would he do that?
Well, as I remember it, there was a short story back, well, forever ago with Four and Romana where he took her to the end of the universe and he shared his Jelly Babies with her as if it was ~the most specialist things evar~! So I begin to think that's it's sort of a catch-all destination for him, you know? Maybe he should build a restaurant or something....
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Because he had such a great time before? No, really, that bugged the crap out of me. WHY THERE?!?! One of the worst things that ever happened to him, happened there. WHY WOULD HE RELIVE THAT?!?!
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Is this one at least more exciting than last weeks? Because last weeks was kind of boring.
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Yes. I actually felt some suspense, so that's good, at least.
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I did manage to jump this week at a skeleton, but the rest of the time... It was interesting, but I still wanted to be scared.
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And of course we'll never ever find out what it was she said, rendering it completely meaningless.
Okay, what's up with River talking about the Doctor being the Doctor "someday?" Erm... *squints* Has he *really* changed that much by the time she runs into him? Huh.
I prefer to believe that by that point, he'll have been with Rose for many, many years and he's grown and changed because of that. Otherwise, huh?
Oh, that's a nice little twist. Mr. Bad Corporate Man had a secret about his aunt - dying as a child but installed into a computer to live on and read every book written.
That I did like, quite a bit. He's protecting his family, not corporate secrets.
You know, I'm gonna go with Jack-style companion on this one. Flirty, definte deep affection for each other, but that's about it.
I like this interpretation. In fact, I'm going to go so far as to say Rose is with him when they travel with River Song. *is being delusional. Leave me alone*
SHAZBOT.
*pets* I'm going for the closed loop thing, yeah. It's the only thing that makes the least bit of sense. He already knows it's happened, so it doesn't mess anything up. Still, though. *sigh*
At least it wasn't as boring as last week?
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Well...we know she said his name. You mean we'll never find out his name? Probably not.
I prefer to believe that by that point, he'll have been with Rose for many, many years and he's grown and changed because of that. Otherwise, huh?
Heh. Would be nice, eh? But anyway, I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around *Ten* being that different. Would have been nicer if they'd indicated it was a future incarnation, but...whatever.
I like this interpretation. In fact, I'm going to go so far as to say Rose is with him when they travel with River Song. *is being delusional. Leave me alone*
MWAH. They really left it open to interpretation, so everything you could read into something or nothing. I think the 3 big things for me were 1) the visiting thing as opposed to staying together, 2) the screwdriver and the name can both be explained by self-fulfilling prophesy (which doesn't rule out more, but it is what it is), and 3) she's pretty much instantly happy about how she winds up. Yeah, it's better than being dead OBVIOUSLY, but we really get nothing of her saying she misses the Doctor or really *anything* about him. Instead she hops on board the New Life train.
Swap out River with Jack and I could see him saying *exactly* the same things and reacting exactly the same way in each and every situation.
*pets* I'm going for the closed loop thing, yeah. It's the only thing that makes the least bit of sense. He already knows it's happened, so it doesn't mess anything up. Still, though. *sigh*
Headache. Ow.
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This doesn't apply to Doomsday because we all know what he was going to say there, but I was wondering if the "There's only one reason I would tell someone my name," comment (whatever it was) could possibly mean he'd only tell her if he thought he was never going to see her again.
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I got the impression that the books themselves were made from the trees they lived in, so they came along? I dunno. There's gotta be an environmental moral in there somewhere.
Okay, what's up with River talking about the Doctor being the Doctor "someday?" Erm... *squints* Has he *really* changed that much by the time she runs into him? Huh.
Um. Yeah. I'm not sure I'd like the Doctor if he changes that much. However, I didn't dislike River as much as I did previously. I *might* even be interested in seeing what she's like when she meets the Doctor.
Other than that...meh. I was gutted when Donna didn't meet Stutter guy again. I want my show to have some happiness, dammit!
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Ah, okay. I guess there's that. I think I just assumed that like all libraries, the books don't all come from the same place.
Um. Yeah. I'm not sure I'd like the Doctor if he changes that much.
Well, and she was back to describing his more god-like aspects. I have so little interest when the Doctor's being portrayed as a god.
However, I didn't dislike River as much as I did previously. I *might* even be interested in seeing what she's like when she meets the Doctor.
She's just...kinda there for me. I liked her okay. But I'm definitely not wild about the character development shortcut taken with her. We're told up front her importance and even her ending, instead of getting to watch something unfold. Even within the episode it was hard for me to buy the "bond" forged between them - something that only happened because of the name thing.
As much as I'm still not that wild about The Doctor's Daughter, in that I did have to give them kudos for some believable character development between the Doctor and Jenny in the short amount of time they had. It rang more true to me.
Other than that...meh. I was gutted when Donna didn't meet Stutter guy again. I want my show to have some happiness, dammit!
That was a bit sad. I pretty much knew it was coming, but Donna really did seem to love him. So it would have been nice if they'd been able to get together.
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*sings* Snap on! *sounds of snapping fingers* Snap off! *more snapping fingers* Snap on, snap off, the snapper!
*rolls about giggling over her own silliness*
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Also for me the whole River Song Dying I saw that coming from last weeks episode. It makes total sense why she was there and why she would know him and why the Doctor did what he did like give her the sonic screwdriver . The part that I am still confuse @-@ was the part at the end .Are the children that River Song was tucking in were they just the VashtaNerada or are they just made up by the whole Matrix? . I know that one of them was the little girl Cal or at least I think it was here. Over all this episode could have been better in my part. Oh one more thing I never got cleared on what happened to the VashtaNerada in the end? 0.o
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Well, yeah. To show deeply important angst. :D
Are the children that River Song was tucking in were they just the VashtaNerada or are they just made up by the whole Matrix? . I know that one of them was the little girl Cal or at least I think it was here. Over all this episode could have been better in my part. Oh one more thing I never got cleared on what happened to the VashtaNerada in the end? 0.o
The children were created by CAL - everything in there is computer generated. But...they kind of choose to live a life in there. Apparently River chose to have kids. And probably get married to someone?
The swarm winds up taking over the planet in the end. The Doctor had a day to get everyone off the planet. So the library will wind up being lost to humanity, except for a handful of people inside the computer.
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And the Doctor burns a candle at both? (heh)
Actually. What I meant was...one physical end--like the end of a road. And one actual end--like when everything ceases to be.
Neither really makes much sense to me (it bugged me when he took Martha there, too). I mean. How can *everything* cease to be? What then? You can't make nothing out of something--that's a law of physics. End of humanity? Sure. End of the word? Sure--we saw it get swallowed by the sun way back in Season 1. But the law of conservation of matter means that everything can't just cease to exist.
Anyway. Oy. It's so damn hot that I am getting existential.
I need a drink.
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And the Doctor burns a candle at both? (heh)
Huh? :D
Actually. What I meant was...one physical end--like the end of a road. And one actual end--like when everything ceases to be.
Hmm.
Neither really makes much sense to me (it bugged me when he took Martha there, too). I mean. How can *everything* cease to be? What then? You can't make nothing out of something--that's a law of physics. End of humanity? Sure. End of the word? Sure--we saw it get swallowed by the sun way back in Season 1. But the law of conservation of matter means that everything can't just cease to exist.
You expect DW to follow science?? :D
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They've done a lot more with the strangeness of time travel than the original series did.
Maybe we'll see River in one (some) of the Bank specials next year.
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If they do, apparently it's going to have to be when Ten's so much older, wiser, and changed. M'kay.
They've done a lot more with the strangeness of time travel than the original series did.
You can mess with it to a point, but too much and you start getting into paradoxes and stuff, which is what this episode did. (Well, it focused on it in the last episode.) I still can't believe they had the Doctor visit her out of order. And then handwave it away with the notion that it all worked out in the end without the reapers turning up.
That element I'll be whining about for YEARS.
Maybe we'll see River in one (some) of the Bank specials next year.
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Though I do like your theory on River being a Jack-like companion. I think I'm picking that as personal cannon and forgetting her and moving on to the fact that WE'RE TWO WEEKS FROM ROSE!!!
FRAK- I JUST REALIZED I'M GOING TO BE AT DISNEYLAND THAT WEEKEND!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
As one who shares my passion for both these things, I think you understand the pain and emotional torment I'm going through right now.
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I pretty much expected it and it's now way past the point of being overdone on this show.
Though I do like your theory on River being a Jack-like companion. I think I'm picking that as personal cannon and forgetting her and moving on to the fact that WE'RE TWO WEEKS FROM ROSE!!!
Heh heh. Well, there was just so much that was *off* as far as this being some sort of romantic-love relationship. The big thing being the not traveling together - just stopping by for visits. It's just so disconnected from the implied importance of telling her his name - but yet she isn't really a permanent part of his life and he's not a permanent part of hers? I'm just...what?
FRAK- I JUST REALIZED I'M GOING TO BE AT DISNEYLAND THAT WEEKEND!!!
Awwwwww! Hope it won't be too hot then!
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...but the visiting out of order thing still bugs me. Maybe he tries to visit her in order, but it's when SHE contacts HIM that they're not sure when she'll reach him? *scratches head*
So, I'm going with companion that gets very special treatment because she'll die for him. *nods*
But what's that about the name? "there's only one reason I'd do that, only one way I could"
COULD? As in, phisically impossible otherwise? Um, WHA? Is there any canon on this? Classic Who? Books? Comics? (haven't watched/read either) I always thought that yeah, his name was SUPERSEKRITOMG and probably very long and he couldn't tell it because it was a) very private; b) very dangerous for those who knew because it could be tortured out of them and used by enemies. Fanon? My over-active imagination? Because this seems to imply that he CAN'T (barring some special circumstances), not that he WON'T. That's the impression I got. So, canon? Or a new Moffat-invention we can look forward to having explained in S5 (maybe)? I think I remember reading a fic once where the Doctor told Rose his name during sex, the only moment he could, thus marrying her/bonding/whatever... Might just have been a smutty badfic I haven't brainbleached properly, though. I am v.v.confused.
Didn't really like River being "saved" into the computer. Reminded me of Ursula in Love&Monsters. Sometimes it's better just to die, you know, Doctor? This feels to me like keeping a brain-dead patient on life-support. Not really alive, not dead, just to make the family feel better. BUT, she's most definitely not his wife/loveofhislife. If I was trapped forever in a cyberworld WITHOUT my love, I wouldn't happily embrace my friends and read bedtime stories to cyberchildren. Huh.
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I guess. It'll forever drive me up the wall though.
So, I'm going with companion that gets very special treatment because she'll die for him. *nods*
Like I commented above just now, I'm really scratching my head if it's supposed to be this romantic-love relationship, but yet they're not a permanent part of each other's lives. So for my own personal canon I can buy love there, but just not Significant Other type love. Sorry, I just can't.
But what's that about the name? "there's only one reason I'd do that, only one way I could"
Because he *had* to? The name is such a painful thing for him apparently, that I'm thinking the only way he'd tell is if he had no choice in the matter. Telling his name or descending into paradox hell - seems like a pretty good reason.
Although it could be that there's only one reason *now*. Maybe he comes to terms with it in the future.
But I don't think it's really a "can't tell" situation. It's a "won't tell."
Didn't really like River being "saved" into the computer. Reminded me of Ursula in Love&Monsters.
And Astrid in VotD.
Sometimes it's better just to die, you know, Doctor? This feels to me like keeping a brain-dead patient on life-support.
Shockingly enough, Torchwood tackled this very well when brining Owen back to life. The people at the end of DW seemed like they didn't care in the slightest about being in a virtual world forever. Maybe the program made them that way?
If I was trapped forever in a cyberworld WITHOUT my love, I wouldn't happily embrace my friends and read bedtime stories to cyberchildren. Huh.
It was just a wee bit too "everything's happy" for the circumstance IMO, but maybe they wanted to do a happy ending for the kiddies or something.
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This made no sense to me. He only did it for the reveal of her death while we think she's alive.
Okay, what's up with River talking about the Doctor being the Doctor "someday?"
I see that as this earlier Doctor doesn't care about her (perhaps love her) so that's the way she's fanwanking it. This isn't really him.
How'd these things get into the books in the first place?
As spores from the trees that made the books. Apparently making a really BIG library is a very bad idea unless you make your books out of some other material.
I'm getting tired of the Doctor getting people to care about that are then immediately taken away. It reduces the dramatic value of the loss if happens every episode.
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Yeah. And...it really wound up having the opposite effect of surprising me. I knew she was dead - it was just a matter of time.
I see that as this earlier Doctor doesn't care about her (perhaps love her) so that's the way she's fanwanking it. This isn't really him.
Yeah, I can see that part. But when she's talking about him being this swaggering force that stares down armies and apparently doesn't get emotional about things... I'm wondering how much Ten is going to change. Because it sounded like she was talking about another incarnation practically.
As spores from the trees that made the books. Apparently making a really BIG library is a very bad idea unless you make your books out of some other material.
Go green, people!
I'm getting tired of the Doctor getting people to care about that are then immediately taken away. It reduces the dramatic value of the loss if happens every episode.
I'm pretty much over it. They're basically making characters turn up just so more tears can be squeezed out of the Doctor. Look. I signed up for this fun, quirky sci-fi show, not Doctor Whump of the Week.
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So again, am I the only one who actually thinks that he just keeps running into River? Crossing paths with her every now and then, and because he paradoxically knows what he means to her and (apparently) she to him, when he's finished dealing with whatever it was he turned up for he whisks her away on some 'date'? With the notable exception of their final date when he would purposefully turn up on her doorstep with his new sonic screwdriver, tell her his name, and make sure that she would be able to gain his trust when they meet in the Library.
She always called him, not the other way around. She screwed up this time and he got her note early (or right on time), maybe that's happened before? She's sent out a call and he's been older/younger than the last time she saw him, thereby having knowledge of (her) future "dates" and no knowledge of (her) past dates.
Then again, who's to say it actually *all* took place out of order? When she was flicking through her TARDIS!diary in SitL, she's working backwards chronologically, not jumping about the pages. It's only then she realises he's never met her. Maybe the order of said "dates" go 2-3-4-5-...-1 for him. This is the only meeting we know of that's taken place out of chronological order, something that's happened before (cf: Sally Sparrow, Queen Elizabeth I). So no flitting about the timeline, just this one meeting. The first and the last. Closing the circle
* darkening the visor
I was fooled. But my excuse is that I was mega tired when I watched it this morning, having had a hellish shift at the pub and being uber tired and in pain. But even if he knew it wouldn't fool him, it gave the others hope and that was more important. They didn't have to watch another friend go through what Proper Dave did - it was only when they were alone that he revealed that he knew
* the Matrix
Called it last week, hello movie time. But it made sense and I liked how it was put together. The scene cuts being actual jumps in time worked, and I was suitably impressed with Donna's grief at losing her children. She felt as if they were hers, that was enough. I would actually like her to have a happy ending - be nice if they found Lee at some point and she went to have a family outwith of The Doctor.
Not too sure about the happy reunion of everyone at the end. Felt cheesy and forced and I kept thinking that Alex was much better than that. I could see her being saved, and I would have been happy if she'd gone on to mother Charlotte, but to have the other boy and girl there - who the hell are they? That's never explained and all it could have taken was a throwaway line from Lux; they put her in the computer, gave her companions of her own age too - two of her childhood friends so she wouldn't be alone. Five seconds, Moffat, and there's a few less o_O moments from the fans
* River's death
They may as well have announced it at the start of part one (or had her in a red shirt) but I still liked how it was done. He had to sit there and watch her die - for him - and then wait with her body until help came. DT played it brilliantly with that look, knowing what he would do, what he wouldn't be able to say to her. Why he would insist on "no spoilers" with her
* everybody lives
Had to happen, didn't it? He knows people die, he knows he can't stop it most of the time. But I think he (and we as the audience) need times like this when it's not just carnage. He saved one family from Pompeii, he saved over 4000 people here. He needs times like these because it'll be what gets him through the next hundred times when everybody doesn't live
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Okay, you're starting to make me calm down about this. Thanks for plotting it out like that. It does help if she's the one to always call him, which winds up getting mucked up as far as timing goes. You'd still have the potential for paradoxes, but it seriously does help my brain to say that the Doctor wasn't intentionally doing this.
You know what would be really wild? If the Doctor winds up knowing River exactly backwards. The next time the Doctor sees River, he'll take her to that place where he gives her the screwdriver. And backwards through her life he goes, until one day he runs into her for her first time. (Wait, isn't that part of the plot of The Time Traveler's Wife? I've not read it, but that's sounding familiar from when I read the synopsis.)
and I was suitably impressed with Donna's grief at losing her children. She felt as if they were hers, that was enough.
*nods*
I wonder how that's impacted her. Like she said in her joking way at the end - she wasn't really okay. She's had love and lost it now.
Felt cheesy and forced and I kept thinking that Alex was much better than that. I could see her being saved, and I would have been happy if she'd gone on to mother Charlotte, but to have the other boy and girl there - who the hell are they?
Yeah, it was a bit...
Show: And she lived happily ever after.
Audience: But...um... o_O
Show: I SAID HAPPILY EVER AFTER, DAMMIT.
DT played it brilliantly with that look, knowing what he would do, what he wouldn't be able to say to her.
I had a really hard time connecting to that. I didn't feel pulled into the River storyline - basically being told she is important without getting to see any of it, as well as told of her connection with the Doctor without getting to see any of it. A little too "she is one of the Doctor's Companions and so you all must love her right now." Well...she was *okay* but I need time to embrace characters with open arms. Even if someone's made companion status, that doesn't automatically earn my undying love and loyalty. And the name thing - a complete shortcut to getting that kind of reaction out of the Doctor at the end. So the whole thing smacked of emotional manipulation to me.
He needs times like these because it'll be what gets him through the next hundred times when everybody doesn't live
Yeah. Small victories.
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