mrv3000 | (no subject)

Anyway, I got off on a tangent. I really now think that Nine was running around in the Time War for a bit. At least long enough to be the one to end it all, as opposed to regenerating as a result of whatever he did.

I've been considering something along those lines. That Nine actually was around for a bit before "Rose" but it wasn't until he met Rose that he gave a damn what he looked like (or, for that matter, acted like).

I've also seen someone point out what a giveaway the line "He needs you. That's very me," really is. Because that would be the Doctor admitting out loud that he needs Rose Tyler and that that is, in fact, enough a part of himself that it counts as a defining characteristic.

Oh, Doctor. I'm feeling that urge to hug and kick him at the same time again.

Edited 2008-08-04 15:17 (UTC)

I've been considering something along those lines. That Nine actually was around for a bit before "Rose" but it wasn't until he met Rose that he gave a damn what he looked like (or, for that matter, acted like).

I can totally see that. After the Time War he probably was in shock for a while, and after that, sort of on automatic and cleaning up after the Time War. And never felt even a bit curious about what he looked like - it didn't matter.

I've also seen someone point out what a giveaway the line "He needs you. That's very me," really is. Because that would be the Doctor admitting out loud that he needs Rose Tyler and that that is, in fact, enough a part of himself that it counts as a defining characteristic.

Oh, Doctor. I'm feeling that urge to hug and kick him at the same time again.

Totally. It's not really couched in a past-tense setting for him. Not "He needs you just like I used to need you back in the beginning." It's why I completely think that if there'd been no half-human Doctor, Rose would still be in the TARDIS in spite of his Davros-related nuttiness. But he saw this as the perfect solution to his issue of living on after her.

It's not really couched in a past-tense setting for him. Not "He needs you just like I used to need you back in the beginning." It's why I completely think that if there'd been no half-human Doctor, Rose would still be in the TARDIS in spite of his Davros-related nuttiness. But he saw this as the perfect solution to his issue of living on after her.

Exactly. Which is why he's so pissy about Ten II existing (he totally is -- the way he cuts off Ten II's attempt to explain to Rose where he came from just reeks of him being pissed off). Because he needs Rose but he doesn't want to destroy her life or turn her into a soldier (which, honestly, he actually kinda did do to Martha -- the Year That Wasn't irrevocably changed Martha's character in a no-take backs kind of way, as her appearances in TW and S4 have shown). And now there's actually a way to do that. And he's happy about that for Rose, but still upset until he convinces himself that it's for the best. Because it's the perfect solution. Damn it.

*nods* It's totally sabotaging himself. I don't think there's anything else in the universe that would make him give up Rose - I'm not convinced Davros' words alone could have done it at this point. He lost her once and I'm not sure he could have done it again without this. (And partly because Rose would have sprinted back into the TARDIS if the other Doctor hadn't been there.)

It's also why I have no problem believing that Ten II really is the Doctor as well - if he wasn't fully the Doctor, Ten I could have found too good of an excuse to keep Rose with him. But he's not only him, he's got the right life-span now. Very much a "damn it" moment for the Doctor, like you say.

Edited 2008-08-04 19:30 (UTC)

Oh, very good point. I've been slacking the DW meta as well, so this is the first I've heard this mentioned, and it seems very apt. The idea that Nine was the one that pushed the button AND still survived (without regenerating at that) lends a whole 'nother perspective onto things...

It really ups the survivor's guilt for him. If he'd regenerated at the end, he might have felt a bit of sharing of the death. Instead he lived.

That's certainly a reasonable interpretation. It would even work with Nine's personality and be the reason he finds himself unable to kill again.

I've always been fond of the theory that killing his people caused the Doctor regenerate though. It would still work with the born in battle statement, since he would be born at the end of battle.

*nods*

It's in no way definitive - just one possible interpretation. Just in mulling about it, something clicked in that he's seen this scenario before - new Doctor, born in battle, commits genocide - and that's why it's hitting him where it hurts.

I completely agree. I really think Ten I needs Rose AND Donna, more than Ten II needs anyone. But it's his own fault for being a stupid pompous git and leaving them both behind.

I think both Doctors need people. :D With Ten II we didn't see this "everything I touch turns to ash" mindset, but he also didn't get the Davros treatment. Thing is, I think that mindset probably is still burried in Ten II.

Yeah, you're right. Ten I needs (at the very least) Donna with him, but he ruined that. And Ten II needs Rose. In a way, Ten I was right for leaving Ten II with Rose... because really, the only person he can't ever compete with is himself. And he knew Ten II was human, and he knew Rose would want someone who she could grow old with. He knew Ten II was perfect for Rose, so he just made it easier for both of them, by not giving Rose a choice at all. Still, he was wrong, but he was right.

As for Ten I's predicament, I think he should have used the Chameleon Arch and kept Donna instead of going all puppet master.

In short, both Doctors needed someone to make them better, and only one Doctor got that someone. Just another one of the many ways Ten I's made a complete martyr of himself. But that's how Doctor Who is, at least from RTD's point of view. It's about moving on, because the same old stuff would just old news.

But you know what else? There's still hope for at least Rose & Ten II. If you've seen the script for the missing scene of Journey's End, you'll understand. At least they can go on like before. For them, it's like season 2 all over again. But better.

As for Donna, I think some time in the future she'll get her memory back and manage not to burn up, awesome woman she is. We all thought there was no hope for Rose, but she came back. Now it's Donna's turn to surprise everyone. And you know what? I can't wait.

Yeah, you're right. Ten I needs (at the very least) Donna with him, but he ruined that.

Well, I'm not sure he had much choice there.

In a way, Ten I was right for leaving Ten II with Rose... because really, the only person he can't ever compete with is himself. And he knew Ten II was human, and he knew Rose would want someone who she could grow old with. He knew Ten II was perfect for Rose, so he just made it easier for both of them, by not giving Rose a choice at all. Still, he was wrong, but he was right.

Yeah. He'll probably never stop doing that to people either. It's reminiscent of what he did to Susan. Her happiness > his own.

As for Ten I's predicament, I think he should have used the Chameleon Arch and kept Donna instead of going all puppet master.

I thought I remembered that the Arch could only be used on Time Lords - as in, you'd have to start out with the whole physiology to use it. Or maybe that's just fanon.

In short, both Doctors needed someone to make them better, and only one Doctor got that someone. Just another one of the many ways Ten I's made a complete martyr of himself. But that's how Doctor Who is, at least from RTD's point of view. It's about moving on, because the same old stuff would just old news.

Yeah, and it's where it gets into martyr-land it starts turning me off. A LOT. There's a choice he's making there - he could include himself in others' lives. He could go hang out with Jack, Martha and Mickey for a while. But he doesn't, instead choosing to isolate himself in what almost seems like self-punishment. And...that gets a bit too head-case for me.

But you know what else? There's still hope for at least Rose & Ten II. If you've seen the script for the missing scene of Journey's End, you'll understand. At least they can go on like before. For them, it's like season 2 all over again. But better.

Oh totally. Them having their own TARDIS is my personal canon. :)

As for Donna, I think some time in the future she'll get her memory back and manage not to burn up, awesome woman she is. We all thought there was no hope for Rose, but she came back. Now it's Donna's turn to surprise everyone. And you know what? I can't wait.

That would be great!

Yeah, and it's where it gets into martyr-land it starts turning me off. A LOT. There's a choice he's making there - he could include himself in others' lives. He could go hang out with Jack, Martha and Mickey for a while. But he doesn't, instead choosing to isolate himself in what almost seems like self-punishment. And...that gets a bit too head-case for me.

I imagine he will eventually. He's just choosing to be emo right now. And that's a good choice on RTD's part for not ending the episode with another one of those "WHAT?!" sessions. I think the Doctor needs some time to just think.

Oh totally. Them having their own TARDIS is my personal canon. :)

Mine too! Oh yes, I loved that missing scene! ANYWAY... *iz still dancing from teh missing scene*

Well, this discussion certainly helped me cope with JE. I've seen it 3 times now, and it just kills me every time. Maybe next time I watch I'll be able to enjoy the episode instead of crying...

Thanks so much for discussing this with me!

-Rachel

I imagine he will eventually. He's just choosing to be emo right now. And that's a good choice on RTD's part for not ending the episode with another one of those "WHAT?!" sessions. I think the Doctor needs some time to just think.

I'm SO glad he didn't do another "WHAT?!" moment. I've hated those moments in past finales.

Thanks so much for discussing this with me!

If there's one thing I can do, it's discuss. :D

Again, thank you! :] You're so darn good at it!

GAH! Just found this: http://community.livejournal.com/doctor_donna/89897.html?view=624681&style=mine#t624681

Just found this: http://community.livejournal.com/doctor_donna/89897.html?view=624681&style=mine#t624681

Having just rewatched the finale again today *sniffle*, I have to agree. We've seen Nine even take up arms with seemingly every intention of using them ("Dalek", anyone?), whereas once Rose got through to him that there was another way, he never appeared as serious about using weapons (PotW, for example), and even abhorred the use of them.

He still needs a swift smack upside the head though. *sigh*

Yeah, he did have that in him back then. I really wonder how much will still be in him now, though. I mean, Ten II experienced everything Ten I did as well - including his time with Rose and her "fixing." So...I just don't think it's a complete reset to Nine. The Doctor would have to forget everything he's experienced for that, and as we saw with Donna, he remembers everything.

And while Nine did have that "Dalek" side to him, he also wasn't a complete lost cause. With the Nestene Consciousness he tried to talk first, and he tried to help the Gelth to where it bit him in the ass.

True, true. But I think with the Daleks he just has such a hate-on for them since they have a very big connection to the end of his people that he has more difficulty in pushing back that more vicious side of himself than he would with any other enemy.

Of course that just means that Ten I does need someone just as much as Ten II, or really any other future incarnation. Unfortunately with Ten I being full Time Lord, he still has that stubborn arrogance of "I can do this alone". Notice how Ten II didn't appear to fight Ten I's edict that he would stay in the AU. Could this be because he's part human and is somewhat less arrogant and willing to admit he needs help, or would it be because he will have Rose, and that makes it more palatable?

Edited 2008-08-04 17:22 (UTC)

You know, if it wasn't for him being sensitive to Rose there, part of me thinks that Ten II would have been doing the hands of joy. :D Especially with that deleted scene of him having his own TARDIS.

We saw (especially in S3) the Doctor being downright weary of his life. In The Lazarus Experiment, he even sadly talks about a longer life not being a better one. So to suddenly get a new life, and one he gets to spend the rest of it with the person he's in love with? I'm thinking he's not really going to object. He gets all "HEY!" when the other him started talking about how damaged he was, but he didn't say a peep about being left behind other than to focus on being able to spend the rest of his life with her now.

Yeah. I think the implication Ten I makes that Ten II somehow needs Rose more than he does is one of the biggest lies he's ever uttered. I'm not saying Ten II *doesn't* need Rose, but seriously, Doctor, it's not like you were all compassionate warmth and sunshine in series 3.

Seems a bit like the Doctor making excuses about kicking himself off into another universe - it's hard to look at himself knowing the potential to kill like that again is still in him, no matter how much he tells himself otherwise.

Definitely. Putting Rose and Ten II in a universe he can never, ever get back to is a rather extreme reaction, so I think a large part of it is all about Ten I's own issues. Like getting that whole speech from Davros and then being confronted with himself committing genocide again. Ouch.

Yeah. I think the implication Ten I makes that Ten II somehow needs Rose more than he does is one of the biggest lies he's ever uttered. I'm not saying Ten II *doesn't* need Rose, but seriously, Doctor, it's not like you were all compassionate warmth and sunshine in series 3.

*nods* It doesn't sound right, really. Of course, Rose would have no way of knowing what the Doctor's been up to. She had no idea who Martha was, so wasn't able to see anything during that time. As far as she knows, he's perfectly fine since he seemed perfectly fine in S2.

I have seen it mentioned in some meta I've read that the Doctor was pushing Rose's buttons here. He wanted her to go with this new Doctor because he probably thought she'd be the happiest with him. And Rose tends to automatically bond with people who are hurting or in need. So he tells her this as a bit of a carrot dangle. Yeah, he's making a unilateral life-choice decision for her again, but I don't think we're ever going to see the Doctor stop doing that about the people he loves. Just look at Donna. Their lives and happiness will always come first.

Definitely. Putting Rose and Ten II in a universe he can never, ever get back to is a rather extreme reaction, so I think a large part of it is all about Ten I's own issues. Like getting that whole speech from Davros and then being confronted with himself committing genocide again. Ouch.

I really think that was an element to leaving them in the other universe - he has a hard time looking at himself. He'd rather not deal with issues, but run off. (Totally a character trait even from the classic series.) And even if he was able to deal with himself and kept both of them in his universe, I'm still seeing problems (which means he probably saw the problems as well.) 1) Rose wouldn't want to leave any Doctor behind, so no ditching the new guy on some moon, and 2) the new guy can grow old with her as well as possibly able to express things better. (Well, at least it comes out.) So even if Rose wouldn't mean to, I have the feeling that she and Ten II would have naturally grown closer, which probably would have been like a kick in the gut for Ten I to have to watch.

Edited 2008-08-04 17:04 (UTC)

This is a fabulous thread, great reading it. I agree with your spec that it was Nine who pushed the button. I mean, we saw at the beginning of "Rose" that he really didn't appear to give a damn whether he lived or died, and it's not like we ever saw mirrors in the TARDIS. So, yeah, it's quite possible that he just didn't care at all. I kinda wrote up in my loooooooooooong review of "Rose" something similar (more about Rose, but it was tied into the Doctor): ... like the Doctor, at this point she was just going through the motions. They were both at a similar point in their lives (the Doctor blithely pointing out that he could die on the roof, simply not caring, just going through the motions of saving the world) ... So it's very believable to me to think that he had just never even cared to look at himself before, so it doesn't contradict that moment in "Rose" at all.

I think he left Rose with TenII because firstly he DOES love Rose and wanted to give her a him with whom she could have a full relationship with (although, hmm, I'm still mulling over possible S2 Doctor/Rose hanky-panky, that's a post waiting to be written, I'm gathering my evidence) and one that can last THEIR lives. Secondly, so that he can punish himself, because he always seems to want to punish himself.

Oh, Doctor.

Edited 2008-08-04 18:12 (UTC)

This is a fabulous thread, great reading it.

Yeah, I've loved people's comments!

... like the Doctor, at this point she was just going through the motions. They were both at a similar point in their lives (the Doctor blithely pointing out that he could die on the roof, simply not caring, just going through the motions of saving the world) ...

I think that completely hits the nail on the head. They came into each other's lives when they mirrored each other. Obviously Rose hadn't gone through some deep trauma, but mirrored each other in this driftless state. Plugging on with their lives but not getting a whole lot from it. They elevated each other and they both found something bigger to live for again.

I think he left Rose with TenII because firstly he DOES love Rose and wanted to give her a him with whom she could have a full relationship with (although, hmm, I'm still mulling over possible S2 Doctor/Rose hanky-panky, that's a post waiting to be written, I'm gathering my evidence) and one that can last THEIR lives.

I think so too. It's a reverse of the fannish "Rose lives forever/regenerates" thing so that they can be with each other forever. I don't doubt that if Ten II didn't exist, that Rose would still be with the Doctor, but it always would have been a source of angst for him - having to watch her grow old while he didn't. I think he could have found it worth it, but with a half-human self it's the solution to his problem. (Except for being alone again, and he's firmly got it into his head he needs to be alone.)

And as far as S2 sex...I'm willing to buy it if someone argues for it, however my personal canon says no at this point. I'd been sort of on the fence before, but Journey's End feels like the first time they've had a real proper kiss - not due to the time vortex or a body swap, but because they wanted to. It's just an impression though.

And I have to snicker at DT's old quote about "no shagging in the TARDIS!!" Well, with that deleted scene of Ten II getting a TARDIS, you'd better believe there'll be shagging in it now. :D

Secondly, so that he can punish himself, because he always seems to want to punish himself.

He needs therapy. Lots of therapy. If the TARDIS is smart, she'll land him on Therapy Planet where they'll trick him by waving something shiny and then forcing a year of couch time.

After Journey's End, I'm pretty sure Nine "pushed the button" as it were, instead of Eight.

Hmm... interesting thought....

It might have some truth to it, but also not, since Ten II has already been "fixed" by Rose once.

Absolutely.

The problem is that those words are really apt for Ten I as well: He's too dangerous to be left on his own.

So true. That was my overriding thought immediately when I first saw it and actually, I would say that it is this little speech of Ten I's is really the only part of the beach scene that didn't sit right with me. The one in the brown looked far more damaged than the one in the blue. I like the theory that he didn't really believe that either, but was pushing Rose's buttons in an attempt to get her to accept TenToo. I think that's why he is also quite cold towards her too. He is pushing her towards TenToo for, what he believes, everyone's benefit but his own, and it hurts.

You're never quite how much he's that deluded about things. Although if you notice, his choice of words are pretty careful - he never actually says he's fine now, only that Rose fixed him once. The implication is there, but he doesn't go so far as to say it. So...maybe a bit of both going on. He doesn't want to believe that the other guy could possibly still be in him, so obviously he needs "fixing." And also he knows what will make Rose want to stay. (Hmm. Side thought. Might be part of why the Doctor never told her about Jack - Rose would have glommed onto him. She couldn't have helped it.)