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4.1 earthquake last night at 4:30 a.m. I doubt if I hadn't already been awake that I would have noticed. rumble rumble rumble JOLT rumble rumble. Might have woken up, but it probably would have involved "Wuh? Huh? zzzzzzzzzzzzz."
I'm sorry, but most of S5 is boring. Really really boring. Not until they get up to choosing new Supreme Court judges later in the season does it start to pick up. Of course, then it starts to go into drama overload, carried over into the next season. Donna's hurt, Fitz is killed and Leo has a heart attack.

I'd completely forgotten that CJ becomes Chief of Staff! At first it seemed a bit bizarre, but it makes sense, especially the way that Matt Santos put it - Leo's job is like being a train scheduler (or something like that). That job keeps things running. Josh...is too into winning. He loves being a hawk, but that's not what that job is. As a RL example, can you name Bush's Chiefs of Staff? If you can, you're better than me. I couldn't name either - had to look up their names. But I sure as hell know Karl Rove's name - because he was their Josh Lyman hawk who makes noise.
I've seen the cut scene where Ten I tosses Ten II the ~~giant chicken foot~~ piece of coral from the TARDIS. It's a shame they couldn't use it because...

1) It didn't come off as too glib, like reading the script it made it sound.

2) It showed an attempt made to get Rose to be sorta okay with things by at least telling her that Donna would be with the other Doctor forever and ever. A kind lie for both Donna and Rose. Makes me wonder if Ten II would ever tell her about Donna so that Rose could have gone on believing that the other Doctor had someone. Sorta like how he withheld info about Jack to her.

3) It showed both Doctors saying something in unison, furthering what they were trying to get across with the second Doctor still being the Doctor.

4) The Doctor saying, "The Doctor in the TARDIS with Rose Tyler - as it should be." This is RTD's version of happily ever after. He couldn't have his happily ever after within the parameters of the show, and so he created a whole other universe to put it in. Complete with TARDIS for their own new adventures (as opposed to some sort of curtain-loving domesticity), and complete with thumbs up from the other Doctor. RTD's happily ever after includes the TARDIS life and not some sort of "settling down" nonsense that many in fandom accuse Rose of only wanting. Where exactly this notion comes from, I've no idea. (If it's the mortgage conversation in TIP, boy is that a misunderstanding of what's going on in that scene.)

RTD said that people can go ahead and treat this cut scene as canon, but I still really wish they'd left it in.

Heh - season 5 of TWW is indeed boring, but 'The Supremes' is one of my favorite episodes. And the Gaza arc is a bit over-dramatic, but there's so much Josh/Donna 'shippiness there that I find myself not caring so much. *g*

And now I really want to see this DW deleted scene, because I feel it would help significantly with my mourning process. *g*

Heh - season 5 of TWW is indeed boring, but 'The Supremes' is one of my favorite episodes. And the Gaza arc is a bit over-dramatic, but there's so much Josh/Donna 'shippiness there that I find myself not caring so much. *g*

Glenn Close is fantastic in The Supremes - I'd love it just for her alone!

And the Josh/Donna stuff was the good part about the whole Gaza thing because Josh is way too adorable with her. Also, it gives him a good kick in the butt about her.

And now I really want to see this DW deleted scene, because I feel it would help significantly with my mourning process. *g*

It's short, but pretty good. Seems strange seeing new stuff in there though. :D

Edited 2008-11-17 16:05 (UTC)

One thing I saw, and this came from reading it. But one thing a NOT Rose fan (that I'm friends with said) was: "I'm glad they left it out... because I felt like he had to convince her ENOUGH to stay with the other Doctor, I'm afraid this would have come off as something worse to more fans."

Which was an interesting point. I'm excited to see the scene though. *needs to go preorder* :3

Huh. To me it addressed one of Rose's big issues - namely that the Doctor would be alone. I would have liked to have seen that.

Its definitely not a point I would have seen (her perspective). But, for me that comes from the "face value" perspective.

I mean, he's always said: "back to the Tardis, same old life."

So I think a lot of people "assume" she doesn't care (unless she speaks up). The common factor I've seen? A lot of people see her as "selfish" which is probably where the "settling down" thing comes in. She IS selfish... but not THAT kind of selfish. She's stubborn and she's fantastic and she's Rose. :3 She sees things the human way (like settling down) and mentions what she thinks will be comforting (i.e. SP/IP) and basically saying "I'll be with you." Others saw that as "Its okay! WE CAN SETTLE DOWN!!!! TOGETHER."

Love her for that... but she's selfish in a very "human" very "normal" way. And if people can't accept that? They can go enjoy their perfect little Mary Sue companions (whoever they may be). Because Rose has flaws... and I love that about her.

Sorry, went a bit Meta....

I COULD also be insane. >>; I'm drawing this from what I've argued and spoken to with my Rose and Non-Rose friends.

A lot of people see her as "selfish" which is probably where the "settling down" thing comes in.

That's just so...odd to me. There's canon example after canon example of Rose choosing not only the Doctor, but that life over and over. TPotW, New Earth, Army of Ghost, just a few off the top of my head. But one conversation where the Doctor was the one to bring up the domestic life, and Rose suggested they do it together, and suddenly it's, "I KNEW IT! SHE WANTS TO SETTLE DOWN AND HAVE TIMEBABIES WITH HIM!!! WHAT A HORRIBLE CHARACTER!!"

Oh I agree. It doesn't make sense... but XD; Thats the only answer I have for where it comes from?

I have NO IDEA where all the Rose bitterness comes from? I was like "WHA?" I've been lucky, the friends I have aren't "OMG NO ROSE" they are more like "eh, I just preferred *insert companion here*"

That sort :3

I've been lucky, the friends I have aren't "OMG NO ROSE" they are more like "eh, I just preferred *insert companion here*"

So much easier to get along with people when there's no personal crusade to take down a character.

I rather liked the scene also.

Definitely agreeing with point #4 - even if they were stuck on Earth they're not exactly going to be typical domestic, even if these days I don't think kids are inconceivable.

The idea that they'd suddenly get 9-5 jobs with the SUV is just so out-there to me. :D I'd say that even if there was no new TARDIS in the picture, they'd be running around the globe, sticking their noses in things. These are two people who do not sit still.

Has anyone said why this scene was cut?

Dunno.

I know that RTD was going for spectacle in the finale, but I do wish he had left more time for character interactions, especially at the end with Rose and with Donna. I'll have to see the coral scene before I decide how I feel about it. I do like the idea of hammering home the Ten and Ten II sameness and making it clear that they are not going to settle down (since when has either wanted that??).

I know that RTD was going for spectacle in the finale, but I do wish he had left more time for character interactions, especially at the end with Rose and with Donna.

I totally agree. It seemed like there was way too much shoehorned into that finale. I think they should have done one or the other (Donna's situation or the Rose resolution). As it was, things felt too rushed.

I'll have to see the coral scene before I decide how I feel about it. I do like the idea of hammering home the Ten and Ten II sameness and making it clear that they are not going to settle down (since when has either wanted that??).

I really love that with this extra scene, RTD's idea of the altverse wasn't limited to giving them each other, but also giving them the life they both want to live.

Oh, I'm so glad that the cut scene is coming off less glib. I haven't seen it yet, but I didn't care from the transcript I had read of it, so this makes me feel better :-)

It's fairly somber (other than the Doctors doing the cute unison thing) and it's obvious Ten I is trying to be upbeat for Rose's sake. And his line about "the Doctor in the TARDIS with Rose Tyler - as it should be" is really perfect in tone. It's wistful, happy, sad and proud all rolled into one.

If I recall correctly, the original version also had this scene taking place on the TARDIS prior to reaching BWB, which really made no sense.

Where exactly this notion comes from, I've no idea. (If it's the mortgage conversation in TIP, boy is that a misunderstanding of what's going on in that scene.)

Well, people will merrily misinterpret scenes to make them fit their personal view of the characters. We know that only too well by now.

Of course, some of these same people who screeched over Rose ostensibly wanting to force the Doctor to settle down with her to Ye Olde Mundane Life have also howled over the here's-a-baby-TARDIS scene ever since its existence was disclosed... naturally, because it means that Rose only wants the Doctor for the TARDIS and the lifestyle it provides.

Um, what?

If I recall correctly, the original version also had this scene taking place on the TARDIS prior to reaching BWB, which really made no sense.

Originally Rose and Ten II were supposed to be running around together before all this too, right? Or something. Really wish we would have gotten more interaction there.

Of course, some of these same people who screeched over Rose ostensibly wanting to force the Doctor to settle down with her to Ye Olde Mundane Life have also howled over the here's-a-baby-TARDIS scene ever since its existence was disclosed... naturally, because it means that Rose only wants the Doctor for the TARDIS and the lifestyle it provides.

Um, what?

HEH! Well, Rose is just evil no matter what, right? She's not actually allowed to want anything in her life since then she'd be selfish. Much better that Jackie and/or the Doctor tell her what she wants. It's proper that way.

Ok. All in all, I loved the fourth series finale. And I hated it at the same time. I think RTD seriously put himself into a hole with it by bringing Rose back (although if she hadn't come back for this, or in the specials before DT leaves the role I would have srsly killed someone. Like...to DEATH. Lol.).

Mostly, I'm p'd off because in the end Rose still stays behind. In my heart I feel she would have done anything to go back with the Doctor. I mean, she got the dimension cannon and all to do it, right? So the little cut scene to me was...cool because I always want more DW, more Ten/Rose, more of that world. But I'm happy it wasn't left in because all of a sudden it feels she's like, "Hey this might not be so bad, TARDIS coral, sweet," and I got the feeling that THAT would have changed her mind, or made her feel a little less sad about the Doctor leaving her behind. I feel quite firmly that she would have gone with him. If BP had signed on for another series anyways. But since she didn't, this was fine. So that's my reasoning as to why I liked it and at the same time didn't.

Yeah it's confusing to me too. :(

I think that if there hadn't been another Doctor, not even the sonic screwdriver could have pried Rose off the railing in the console room. She'd already made a choice between the Doctor and Jackie back in Doomsday, so it had to be something else. And unless they did the forced separation again (which would have forever had people expecting her back again), really the only thing to get her to stay in the altverse again would be the Doctor himself.

I like the cut scene because it softens an incredibly hard situation.

The Doctor saying, "The Doctor in the TARDIS with Rose Tyler - as it should be." This is RTD's version of happily ever after. He couldn't have his happily ever after within the parameters of the show, and so he created a whole other universe to put it in. Complete with TARDIS for their own new adventures (as opposed to some sort of curtain-loving domesticity), and complete with thumbs up from the other Doctor. RTD's happily ever after includes the TARDIS life and not some sort of "settling down" nonsense that many in fandom accuse Rose of only wanting.

He really did. I kinda love him for that. He had a story and he told it, while still leaving the basic story there to continue on after he'd left.

Where exactly this notion comes from, I've no idea. (If it's the mortgage conversation in TIP, boy is that a misunderstanding of what's going on in that scene.)

I remember seeing that notion being tossed around before the TIP conversation, so while they twist that conversation to use to 'prove' their point, it's not the basis of it. I think it's really just part of the whole 'Rose is a stupid, ordinary girl who doesn't deserve the Doctor' attitude, so naturally she would want to tie him down to the most boring 'human' life possible.

You know, this is gonna sound convoluted...but I think when people trot out that "Rose is selfish" argument, what they actually don't like about her is that she goes against the stereotype of contemporary womanhood by unashamedly showing that she regards her primary purpose as being there for the Doctor. That kind of love is very unfashionable in these individualistic times.

It tends to bother women most because they equate it (wrongly, in my view) with subservience and anti-feminism. In fact, to sacrifice yourself for someone who would do the same for you is beautiful regardless of your gender or sexual orientation.

I think that had an awful lot to do with the insistence that Martha was kick-ass and awesome - people just couldn't handle the idea that she, too, might choose to serve the Doctor and of course there were race issues there as well. By the time we got to Donna it had kind of worked its way through.

This makes sense. I remember back when Doomsday aired, there were complaints that Rose cried. As if that somehow erased everything strong about her character. I boggled because since when does a woman crying over a deep loss instantly equal a pathetic character? That's a realistic character. Somehow the Doctor escaped a downgrade of his character for his crying.

I think to some, the only kind of strength a woman can display is a gun-toting, ass-kicking kind. And to only accept that kind of strength...that's a bit messed up. (Not to mention cartoonish.)

I remember seeing that notion being tossed around before the TIP conversation, so while they twist that conversation to use to 'prove' their point, it's not the basis of it. I think it's really just part of the whole 'Rose is a stupid, ordinary girl who doesn't deserve the Doctor' attitude, so naturally she would want to tie him down to the most boring 'human' life possible.

I guess. It's just so strange to me still, because there's nothing in canon to support this, but in fact supports the opposite.

Oh! And I got all caught up in the Rose stuff that I forgot to say -- while I loved the Doctor(s) and Rose in that scene, Donna was kinda annoying. It fits with her character, but it's still annoying.

I was pretty indifferent to Donna there.

I much prefer Donna over Doctor!Donna though. I like Donna's non-Doctor awesomeness. The kind she unfortunately never realized she had.

Heh, I GREATLY prefer original Donna over the Doctor Donna. I loved Donna as she was, and when she started breezing around the TARDIS all, "We can go to Fellspoon," I instantly thought, Oh no, this is about to get very annoying.

And of course the second that thought left my brain it ALL FELL APART! Leaving me with, "Well I didn't mean for THAT TO HAPPEN!!!!! GAH!!!!!"

Heh, I GREATLY prefer original Donna over the Doctor Donna. I loved Donna as she was, and when she started breezing around the TARDIS all, "We can go to Fellspoon," I instantly thought, Oh no, this is about to get very annoying.

It really would have gotten annoying. I much prefer it when companions compliment the Doctor rather than duplicate him. Character-wise, I mean. It's part of why I much prefer Romana I to Romana II - Romana I seemed to bring different things to the dynamic, while Romana II seemed to bring the same things as the Doctor to the dynamic. She was like...mini!Doctor. Very similar to Doctor!Donna.

ETA: I should clarify that Romana II is very like Doctor!Donna from a character dynamics standpoint, not that their characters are identical.

And of course the second that thought left my brain it ALL FELL APART! Leaving me with, "Well I didn't mean for THAT TO HAPPEN!!!!! GAH!!!!!"

Yeah. *SHAKES FIST*

(At first I typed "shakes fish," which...I'll shake anything at them for mind-wiping Donna.)

Edited 2008-11-17 19:01 (UTC)

Oh no! They disserve the shaking with fishes!

Torrents of giggles.

Okay - there is a Veggie Tales book - about being polite good manners. And the line that keeps getting repeated over and over again is that they nasty villiage people keep slapping each other with fishes. It kills me.

HA!!!

I didn't feel an earthquake. Not that that's huge...but they usually do wake me up. I musta been dead.

It was pretty short, so even if you did sort of wake up, it would have been over by the time you gained any awareness.

s5 really is a low point in TWW.
Aaron Sorkin left after s4, so the show kinda wobbled for a while, trying to find its path again.
mid s6 it starts to get better and s7 its fun again, though it never quite regains the brilliantness of its golden days. John Wells became the executive producer after Sorkin left.

A lot of times it did have the feeling of going through the motions in the beginning of S5. That spark was gone. But it started to come back at the end of that season, even if things did get a little more melodramatic.

I said this over at Time and Chips, and I still feel the same. I like knowing about the coral exchange, but I wasn't thrilled at the delivery.

The Doctor's levity at "Oh I've got madam," doesn't match his ANGST throughout the original cut of the scene. It's very clear through the original cut that he is making a sacrifice, and even though we will soon find out he's totally lying, this bit works against that theme.

Also, I weirdly like Rose being allowed to worry about him. His reaction to her concerns is too dismissive. Again - he's lying, but she and we don't know that yet, and it feels dismissive. All, meh, no worries here.

And it's different from his "I've still got the TARDIS, same old life," from Doomsday. Because in Doomsday they both know it's hollow. It is a reassurance - I've lived this life before, I can do it again. There is an unspoken acknowledgement that it's not the same without her there. She made his old life better, now he has to go back to it, but yes, he will survive.

Here, "I've got madam," comes off far more, "Oh no, see this lovely lady here, she'll keep me company. Off you go, no big deal." Again it's a lie, but it's a far more hurtful one than he may intend, because it carries an undertone of, "I don't really need you."

As for the IP/SP - weird. I've always read that conversation as way more complex than Rose being all, "And I have you now! HA HA!"

One - For once Rose will be the one far more able to adapt. She's dealing with the situation better than he is. "Find a planet, get a job." It's not the life she wants, but it is the life she has come from and she will be able to deal if that is the hand they are dealt. As opposed to the Doctor, who is the one freaking out.

Two - Except he isn't really freaking out quite so much anymore is he? He is, but he's settled down enough from his original panic to the point where he can joke about it. He's desperately uncomfortable with the idea - but he might be able to manage.

Three - Because stuck with you isn't so bad. The big undertone is they can handle any crisis because they are together. And isn't it funny, that the crisis of forced domesticity is almost as scary as Daleks and Cyberman? Even so - they've faced down monsters as a team, they will face down carpets in the same spirit. Which is building nicely to the "I believe in her," speach.

Four - I also thinks part of Rose's acceptance, everyone leaves home in the end, is through her confidence of how she feels about him. She originallly went with him for the travel and adventure - and it is a life she still wants very much and loves. But when it comes down to it, at this point, she loves him more. And this is brilliant - she isn't just using him for his TARDIS. She loves him, in whatever situation they find themselves. Traveling the stars forever, stuck on a planet - with him is where she wants to be. She confirms this in Army of Ghosts in her conversation with Jackie. He'll never settle down, so she will never settle down with him.

Five - We also get the adorable embarrassment about having the moving in together conversation. It is an acknowledgement that their relationship is changing and evolving. Rose suggests it - they they both immediately go "EEEEEP!" And then they both calm down from the initial nerves. It's like any boyfriend/girlfriend first tossing out that scary possibility, not really sure how the other will react, only on a grand alien scale. It's hilarious and brilliant.

Edited 2008-11-17 19:27 (UTC)

The Doctor's levity at "Oh I've got madam," doesn't match his ANGST throughout the original cut of the scene. It's very clear through the original cut that he is making a sacrifice, and even though we will soon find out he's totally lying, this bit works against that theme.

It might have been projecting on my part, but it struck me as him pulling his "I'm always all right" routine. So I could buy him at least trying to brush it off. He hates focusing on himself in these kinds of situations.

Here, "I've got madam," comes off far more, "Oh no, see this lovely lady here, she'll keep me company. Off you go, no big deal." Again it's a lie, but it's a far more hurtful one than he may intend, because it carries an undertone of, "I don't really need you."

Huh. It didn't even occur to me like that for some reason. Not sure why, although I can see how you could get that.

One - For once Rose will be the one far more able to adapt. She's dealing with the situation better than he is. "Find a planet, get a job." It's not the life she wants, but it is the life she has come from and she will be able to deal if that is the hand they are dealt. As opposed to the Doctor, who is the one freaking out.

Rose is totally dealing with the situation better than the Doctor there.

Four - I also thinks part of Rose's acceptance, everyone leaves home in the end, is through her confidence of how she feels about him. She originallly went with him for the travel and adventure - and it is a life she still wants very much and loves. But when it comes down to it, at this point, she loves him more. And this is brilliant - she isn't just using him for his TARDIS. She loves him, in whatever situation they find themselves. Traveling the stars forever, stuck on a planet - with him is where she wants to be. She confirms this in Army of Ghosts in her conversation with Jackie. He'll never settle down, so she will never settle down with him.

*nods* She doesn't just love the Doctor for what he can give her - she'll love him no matter the situation. If she has the choice, she'll take that life over the simple one - she loves it - but with no choice, she'll adapt.

Five - We also get the adorable embarrassment about having the moving in together conversation. It is an acknowledgement that their relationship is changing and evolving. Rose suggests it - they they both immediately go "EEEEEP!" And then they both calm down from the initial nerves. It's like any boyfriend/girlfriend first tossing out that scary possibility, not really sure how the other will react, only on a grand alien scale. It's hilarious and brilliant.

And it's fairly hysterical given the fact that it would already take another universe to split them up. But actually verbalizing this? "AAAAAAAHHHH!" :D

I love that scene, even if Donna sounds a bit "undonnaish" about the equal thing; I wish she had said something like: "Don't worry, I'll take care of this idiot". That would have been perfect!

I think I would have liked that better too. As it is, I find it sad on Donna's behalf. Like she only deserved to travel with with Doctor if she was "equal" or something.

Which is just weird. Sure the Doctor is superior in intelligence, but more often than not the companion is superior in emotions and inter-personal relationships, which shouldn't be sniffed at. The Doctor can take them to the stars, but they keep him grounded. He gives companions what they want, companions give him what he needs. Who exactly is superior?

So happy to see the scene, and it is much better than how it read. Primarily because it didn't have that one phrase that got under my skin reading the script. When Rose was supposed to accept Ten II, then say to Ten I "Oh, but I forgot, what about you?"
Like she's so caught up in her human version that he's an afterthought. All in all, it could've been done better- but at least this looked a tiny bit more like Rose was actually making the choice, reinforced that the Doctors are the same person, and gave a brighter future for them.

So I'm starting a campaign to find out who cut it, and go whack them upside the head, Jackie and Donna style. And a few more times for how they treated my Donna.

Don't really care for the DoctorDonna. Because she is completely awesome unto herself, but never realizes it until she's made something else.

Like she's so caught up in her human version that he's an afterthought. All in all, it could've been done better- but at least this looked a tiny bit more like Rose was actually making the choice, reinforced that the Doctors are the same person, and gave a brighter future for them.

*nods* I thought it played muuuch better than it read as well. Reading it it all sounded so casual and "lalala whatever." But acting is everything.

So I'm starting a campaign to find out who cut it, and go whack them upside the head, Jackie and Donna style. And a few more times for how they treated my Donna.

Heh. Yes.

Don't really care for the DoctorDonna. Because she is completely awesome unto herself, but never realizes it until she's made something else.

*sighs* I really wish something else could have happened. I know life's not fair, but damn.

It was an excellent scene. I'll be fine, I have Madam. Sniff. I really don't get why it couldn't stay in.

I'm not really sure why it got cut. Pacing maybe? :-\

However I did see the alternate ending to JE, and I'm GLAD they cut it. It was laaaaaaaame. :D The Doctor's "what???" followed by two Cybermen popping up behind him in the TARDIS. Not exactly sure why they filmed that since from the Christmas preview, it doesn't look like it starts out with Cybermen in the TARDIS at all.

I keep checking my tracking form. My DVDs are hanging out in the Garden State right now. I look forward to seeing these for myself.

I always do that whenever I'm getting shipped something too. "It's in St. Louis! Now it's in Long Beach!" :D

I wish they'd left it in too! It's rather perfect in terms of what I wanted and it would have made the ending seem more complete and less rushed.

*nodnodnod* Well, at least it was actually filmed. That's something at least.

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