Yes!

[mrv3000]

So often I'd be rolling my eyes when female characters would get blasted for crying, or showing any kind of weakness or...basically for any behavior that wasn't them being a superhero-ish BAMF.

This older article talks about the supposed "strong female characters" Hollywood's been dishing out.

Link from rusty_halo.

Comments

[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

The other facet to the Strong Female Character problem, more commonly seen on television, is the Strong Female Character who is in reality a Strong Male Character With Tits. They're commonly held up as examples of how female characters should all be written, often by female members of fandoms who claim to be feminists, when the message isn't 'hey, look, a strong woman,' but rather that to be a truly exceptional woman one must take on a wholly male outlook and set of behaviors save for the possession of female sexual characteristics.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I've seen this attitude around, and it often frustrates me. Sometimes it feels like a woman can't be a strong woman unless she's got a gun strapped to her. Martha can't be a strong woman unless she's commando!Martha. Rose can't be a strong woman unless she's blowing up Daleks. When actually I've found other things they've done as better examples of "strength."

[greenpear.livejournal.com]

The article was quite good. I agree with most of it.

You mention Martha and Rose but I think that Donna was the strongest female companion on NuWho. She had a force of will far stronger than the other two. She was always a strong character - she just learned to direct it when she went traveling with the Doctor.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

*nods* I agree that Donna had her own strength.

I mentioned Martha and Rose because quite often they're the ones that get ripped in fandom for not being strong women.

[greenpear.livejournal.com]

Not being in the fandom very deep I don't see what people say. But I can understand how some fans might say that.

[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

She was certainly the most matured, and the most forceful, but I don't see yelling a lot as an inherent sign of strength. People who are secure, as Ten II noted, don't need to yell.

[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes, poor Martha. The lesbian ninja nun issue. And Rose, who wasn't a strong woman except when she was carrying around a giant gun.

[larissa-j.livejournal.com]

wholly male outlook and set of behaviors save for the possession of female sexual characteristics.

And worse, accentuating (*cough* fetishizing*cough*) those characteristics and then packing them with male views on sexuality and claiming that the female character "owns" her sexuality.

Bullshit. TV and movies are bad about this but fandom is ten times worse.

[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

And worse, accentuating (*cough* fetishizing*cough*) those characteristics and then packing them with male views on sexuality and claiming that the female character "owns" her sexuality.

Yeah, skintight black leather or vinyl bodysuits are not exactly practical.

Kudos to RTD for making even commando!Martha dress sensibly.

[soniag.livejournal.com]

Loved the article. Still wondering if there is a female equivalent of Hamlet. Who comes closest, I wonder?

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I have no idea. I can't say I remember seeing any brooding self-destructive female characters.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_thirty2flavors/]

I feel like there were many of them in the books we read in Can Lit last year... but since I only read like a third of the novels I was supposed to for that class I'm having trouble drawing any concrete examples to mind.

[soniag.livejournal.com]

Enid from Ghost World was brooding and self-destructive, but I always thought of her as a female Holden Caulfield rather than a Hamlet.

[papilio-luna.livejournal.com]

I haven't read the article yet, but Buffy spent a whole lot of time being quite self-destructive and brooding in the later seasons.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. That might work...

[janetmaca.livejournal.com]

Skimmed the article, but I love it so far.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

It's pretty good.

[goldy-dollar.livejournal.com]

I approve of this article! :D

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Me too. :D

[erateini.livejournal.com]

'...the “strength” of her character was just to make her a better prize for the hero at the end – and for the horny male audience throughout.'

And that unfortunatly sums it up for many female characters, not an equal partner for the male lead but a prize!

:(

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Pretty much, yeah.

[darnaguen.livejournal.com]

SO. MUCH. WORD.

As principia_coh said, it's really frustrating that there seems to be this general consensus that in order to be a strong woman, you need to be able to kick someone's ass. I mean, yeah, it shows that you're not completely defenseless, but there are different ways you can be strong.

For example, I've never understood why people think Éowyn's the only strong female character in Tolkien's writings. Bwuh?
If you look more closely, she's not even the first or only one to take up arms, but I digress. What I mean is... would you go and call Galadriel weak? There's not much of Arwen in the writings, but I do think it takes considerable strength of character to be as patient as she was. Waiting around for some guy is probably considered weak by modern standards, but I find it admirable.

But anyway, when it comes down to it, I don't think a character's gender should matter all that much when you're creating their personality and their strengths and flaws. Sure, some people in real life as well are more stereotypically feminine or masculine, but even that is affected a lot by what kind of role models media creates.

Pretty much that's why I love The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley. It's Arthuriana from the perspective of the women, and each and every one of them is just as flawed and human as the men, they both fuck up and are awesome. Like real people.

But the sad thing is, if you're a female character and act like a real woman from some particular background would in real life when put in some particular situation, fandom will hate it. Go figure.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

SO much yes. And I think people are missing out on a lot by having a one-track mindset of "strength."

I've only ever seen the movies, so I'm surprised people would think that Galadriel is weak. She certainly didn't seem that way in the films. And unfortunately I don't know The Mists of Avalon at all.

But the sad thing is, if you're a female character and act like a real woman from some particular background would in real life when put in some particular situation, fandom will hate it. Go figure.

Yeah. *sighs*

[darnaguen.livejournal.com]

Those were just examples I thought of first and I'm kind of a book geek, so no need to feel bad for not knowing what I'm rambling about.

I do have to feel a bit sorry for tv writers, though, since it seems like fandom in general is unpleasable when it comes to female characters. If she's too "strong", she's a Mary Sue. If she's too real, she's a weakling. Or otherwise annoying.
Sometimes I'm actually worried what fandom does to young people's psyche. But maybe it's just me. Guess I don't fit in the fandom anyways because I dare to like, even love (or at least not hate or dislike) characters like Rose, and Kate from Lost *shrug*.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

It is a little troubling to think of what people come away with from fandom sometimes. It can have really positive aspects to it, but also really negative aspects to it. :-\

[shinkonokokoro.livejournal.com]

Love the article. What a great link. :)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Had to pass it along! :)

[elirrina.livejournal.com]

Good article! Yes, it should not really be difficult to write women as human beings.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

You'd think, right?

[audrich.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the link x
Interesting they liken SFCs as Mary Sues.. hmmm.. will have to think more on this!

[http://users.livejournal.com/_thirty2flavors/]

Interesting they liken SFCs as Mary Sues.. hmmm.. will have to think more on this!

Yeah, I think that was the part of the article that sort of made me frown a bit. I agree with the general sentiment, and I see what they're getting at, but by God do I hate the word "Mary Sue".

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that was the only part I wasn't wild about.

[skybound2]

Oh, I LIKED this article. Typically, I avoid getting into things that could be classified as feminist debates. And I get a lot of heat in RL from people when I claim NOT to be a feminist. I try to explain to them that (for me, not necessarily for everyone) to claim that I am a feminist implies that there is something I feel the female gender needs to prove to the masses at large. And that just isn't the case. Its the "I am what I am" scenario, and I feel no need to prove myself to anyone BUT me. What you (that's the generic you, of course) think of me is entirely irrelevant. (I recognize that I have the privileged to live in a slightly more liberated time than women have previously - a me that was raised in the 50s would likely feel different.)

That's often my problem with female characters in stories and films. They are always so in your face with LOOK HOW AWESOME I AM BECAUSE I CAN DO THESE THINGS! And I much prefer a character that just IS (male or female). They accomplish things because they need to be done, and no one else is stepping up to the plate. And sometimes they fail, because they aren't the best for the task. (I'm really thinking of the movie "The Queen" right now, which was just brilliant.) The application of believable flaws to a character is really my benchmark for a good story. It might be why I like anti-hero(ine) stories so much...

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly.