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Even though I saw it posted in a community, I keep forgetting that Lost starts tonight. Not as excited as I was when S2 started since everything back then was OMGHATCH! But hopefully it'll be good.
Deleted DW meta from earlier today was as the result of one of the few places I didn't unsub from when I had my meltdown. I decided to go off on the Doctor=Peter Pan analogy which drives me BATS. There's the "lives forever" thing and that's where the similarities stop, IMO. Peter Pan never grows up. The Doctor is very much an adult and then some, despite having a lot of kid-like fun. Peter Pan's world is full of play fighting. The Doctor's world, while fantastical, is NOT Neverland, and is filled with death and destruction. And don't get me started on the whole Wendy aspect of it. An analogy *peeve,* I tell you. Maybe this Peter Pan thing is more applicable to older versions, but I did not get that at ALL from watching Nine and Ten. But ANYWAY...

ETA: Spoilers for DW S2 in comments.
Project Runway tonight, right? Woo!

PR is the reunion show, not a new runway show, which should be .... interesting. Never seen one of those before.

You know how I feel about the DW thing; I have to grit my teeth every time I see it, even if no one actually mentions "Peter" or "Wendy". *headdesk*

PR is the reunion show, not a new runway show, which should be .... interesting. Never seen one of those before.

Ohhh. Me either. Hmm.

You know how I feel about the DW thing; I have to grit my teeth every time I see it, even if no one actually mentions "Peter" or "Wendy". *headdesk*

Yeah. It's just...yeah. The Wendy part of it makes me weep for every companion, but mainly for the Doctor.

I think one of the reasons the Pan/Doctor analogy endures is because the Doctor kind of lives in the present and is generally Not Good at considering the consequences of his actions, thus "doesn't grow up," like Peter Pan. (IIRC, in the book there's some text about what Peter running away as a baby did to his poor mother, and how he forgot all about it, and other evidence of him not thinking about the consequences of his actions.)

Depending on how you feel about Harriet Jones, an example of this from the Doctor would be Ten bringing down her goverment because she didn't take his advice, despite Nine talking about how her uninterrupted Parliamentary reign would bring about a new Golden Era, etc. etc. There's also quite a bit in the Eighth Doctor audio Neverland relating to this (big surprise, eh? *g*), where Charley talks about how the Doctor is like Peter, saving her from the R101 without thinking about what it'll do to the Web of Time. So no, it's not a perfect analogy by any means, but I have to admit I have some fondness for it, and I try to make apologies for it where I can. *g*

But you're absolutely right about how the Doctor's world is very real and very not-Neverland. Companions generally aren't Wendies, either, although I think some might be considered Lost Boys. ;)

I think one of the reasons the Pan/Doctor analogy endures is because the Doctor kind of lives in the present and is generally Not Good at considering the consequences of his actions, thus "doesn't grow up," like Peter Pan.

Seems a bit of a stretch for me, especially since from what I've seen of Nine and Ten, while he does live in the moment, he's still able to see the big picture. He can make the hard/tough choices, which is very "adult." Peter? There's no big picture to him. His world is small and by the end, he's kind of a pathetic character.

(IIRC, in the book there's some text about what Peter running away as a baby did to his poor mother, and how he forgot all about it, and other evidence of him not thinking about the consequences of his actions.)

Oh right. I kinda remember that.

There's also quite a bit in the Eighth Doctor audio Neverland relating to this (big surprise, eh? *g*), where Charley talks about how the Doctor is like Peter, saving her from the R101 without thinking about what it'll do to the Web of Time.

I'm gonna have to listen to that. (Well, duh. Needed to anyway! *g*) But this was why I said the thing about the Peter Pan thing being more applicable to prior versions, because obviously I've got only the new stuff to go on.

Companions generally aren't Wendies, either, although I think some might be considered Lost Boys. ;)

If there *has* to be the Peter Pan comparison, I'd prefer to think of them as Lost Boys as well. The Wendy thing - oy. Wendy's all about "growing up" and showing that Peter's life is not only stagnant, but a poor choice. But also, if the Doctor can only ever have Wendys in his life, not only is that vastly hollow, it only keeps showing how his life is pathetic with each passing Wendy...

I said don't get me started! :D

Seems a bit of a stretch for me, especially since from what I've seen of Nine and Ten, while he does live in the moment, he's still able to see the big picture. He can make the hard/tough choices, which is very "adult." Peter? There's no big picture to him. His world is small and by the end, he's kind of a pathetic character.

Very true about Peter. And I would agree with you about Nine, and to a certain extent with Ten. (In addition to the Harriet Jones thing, there's also crashing through the mirror in TGIF, and going, "Oh, yeah. Slow path." Although to be fair he probably at least somewhere in the back of his mind was thinking, "I remember being in France around this time during my third incarnation, or England a few years later in my fifth," or something like that, and was planning to hitch a ride back to the space station o' crazy.)

Basically I agree with you that the analogy is flawed, but as any student of the humanities knows, what facts don't fit your theory are completely ignorable in your quest to write a good paper. *g*

Oh right. I kinda remember that.

Yep. And I just rewatched bits of the new(est) PP movie, and thought of two more reasons why the comparison is made: first of all, the Doctor's constant travel and refusal to settle down into picket fenced hell can be read as a refusal to grow up. (Not saying that it is, because lord knows I have no plans of doing such myself and I consider myself as grown up as anyone else, but just that it can be read that way if you've a mind to.) Also, in many versions of the story, Peter comes back many years later and thinks he'll find Wendy in the nursery, when he ends up finding her all grown up and a new child in her bed. This is sort of relateable to the Doctor's loose sense of timing (or more accurately, his old and buggy TARDIS *g*). Weak, I admit, but again, I like the analogy, so I look for these kinds of things.

I'm gonna have to listen to that. (Well, duh. Needed to anyway! *g*)

Hee!

But this was why I said the thing about the Peter Pan thing being more applicable to prior versions, because obviously I've got only the new stuff to go on.

Oh, yeah. If any of version of the Doctor is Pan-like, it is Eight. Eight takes "living in the moment" to new levels. *g* Also, maybe there's a case for Four being like that, with his shoving Sarah Jane out the door in Aberdeen, and not realizing until he's regenerated half a dozen times and run into her again that maybe he should've thought a little harder about that one.

If there *has* to be the Peter Pan comparison, I'd prefer to think of them as Lost Boys as well.

Yep, if for no other reason than it irritates me every time I think of the bit in the book where Wendy goes back every year for a while and does spring cleaning for Peter. I...ow. I just keep telling myself that it was ~1910, but that really doesn't do much for me. And I don't see any companion doing that!

The Wendy thing - oy. Wendy's all about "growing up" and showing that Peter's life is not only stagnant, but a poor choice.

She is. And I find it fascinating that J.M. Barrie, who by all accounts had some trouble growing up himself, to the point where he was terrified of consumating his marriage, would write something glorifying growing up. (Although come to think of it, that may be mostly from other versions of the story. I need to reread the book, because I sort of remember this sad tone at the end that everyone had grown up and was boring.)

Anyway, you said you didn't like the analogy, so if you want me to shut up about it already, just say the word. :D

Although to be fair he probably at least somewhere in the back of his mind was thinking, "I remember being in France around this time during my third incarnation, or England a few years later in my fifth," or something like that, and was planning to hitch a ride back to the space station o' crazy.

Yeah, I profoundly want to believe this since otherwise it really makes him a jackass. And while he does *play* a jackass at times, I really need to believe that he's loyal to his companions and wouldn't just strand them for all eternity without some sort of plan. (Oy. The more I think about TGitF, the more problems I find with it. So I just don't think about it. :D)

Basically I agree with you that the analogy is flawed, but as any student of the humanities knows, what facts don't fit your theory are completely ignorable in your quest to write a good paper. *g*

HA!! So true. :)

first of all, the Doctor's constant travel and refusal to settle down into picket fenced hell can be read as a refusal to grow up. (Not saying that it is, because lord knows I have no plans of doing such myself and I consider myself as grown up as anyone else, but just that it can be read that way if you've a mind to.)

I can see why the comparison is drawn, but like you, I'm just not buying it. The TARDIS/time travel is his life - one he loves. And, alien! Why in the world would he even *want* to fit himself into a mold of the 20th century's idea of what an "adult" is? And HUMAN adult, no less? To me him freaking out about having a mortgage wasn't an "omg, I'll have to grow up finally!" moment, it was a "goddammit, I'm going to be stuck on Earth in a boring, human life!" moment.

Also, in many versions of the story, Peter comes back many years later and thinks he'll find Wendy in the nursery, when he ends up finding her all grown up and a new child in her bed. This is sort of relateable to the Doctor's loose sense of timing (or more accurately, his old and buggy TARDIS *g*). Weak, I admit, but again, I like the analogy, so I look for these kinds of things.

Yeah. Again, I can see why some would be tempted to use this, but you're right. It's very weak.

Yep, if for no other reason than it irritates me every time I think of the bit in the book where Wendy goes back every year for a while and does spring cleaning for Peter. I...ow. I just keep telling myself that it was ~1910, but that really doesn't do much for me. And I don't see any companion doing that!

Ugh. UGH.

Just so hate what the idea of the Doctor being Peter Pan makes him out to be.

(Oy. The more I think about TGitF, the more problems I find with it. So I just don't think about it. :D)

I have the same problem. I loved it on the first viewing, and then my power to reason kicked in (it had been overwhelmed by the pretty) and I went, "Wait..."

The TARDIS/time travel is his life - one he loves. And, alien! Why in the world would he even *want* to fit himself into a mold of the 20th century's idea of what an "adult" is?

On general principles, I agree with you. But there is that bit in Doomsday(? It was a Ten ep) where he's all, "It's the one adventure I'll never have," i.e., living a normal life, and he does sound rather wistful about it all. Then again, actions speak louder than words, and obviously he's not interested in living that, even when he has a chance while stuck in France with Mme. de Pompadour. It's like he has a vocation or something--save the world, no time to settle down even though you might want to, ever onward...

Canon is confusing.

To me him freaking out about having a mortgage wasn't an "omg, I'll have to grow up finally!" moment, it was a "goddammit, I'm going to be stuck on Earth in a boring, human life!" moment.

It read like that to me as well.

Just so hate what the idea of the Doctor being Peter Pan makes him out to be.

I wonder if the analogy carries more weight when it's proposed from the POV of a companion, particularly one who isn't too clear on how the Doctor has lots of companions. In "Neverland" (I promise this isn't a spoiler), Charley has a longish diatribe about Eight's Pannish tendencies, and she ends it with how PP is sad because Wendy grows up (not because Peter doesn't--I think this must say something about either her character or the writer), and leaves Peter [the Doctor] all alone. From a companion's POV, this actually makes a certain amount of sense to me. The doctor appears to continue on indefinitely as is because he has such a long lifespan; us humans change and develop so fast in comparison that it's as if he stays the same. It's sad that the human companion has to "grow up" and leave (where "leave" can also be "die"), like Wendy. (Damn it, and here I said not two comments ago that companions aren't really Wendies. Shit.)

Interestingly, the Doctor gets very defensive about this, apparently seeing himself a little too clearly as Peter, and is all, "But Peter never forgot her! He was always there to save Wendy from the crocodiles!" But of course Peter does forget--he forgets to come back for Wendy until it's too late--because he's a child, that's what he does; the Doctor obviously doesn't forget, and we're right back at the analogy being flawed.

Right, I think I got in over my head with that latest theory/apologia. I'll take my incoherent ramblings over to my own journal now...

Then again, actions speak louder than words, and obviously he's not interested in living that, even when he has a chance while stuck in France with Mme. de Pompadour. It's like he has a vocation or something--save the world, no time to settle down even though you might want to, ever onward...

Well, the Doctor is a walking contradiction, about more than one thing. He's lonely, but yet he pushes people away. (heh. I have someone point this out to him in the fic I'm writing at the moment.) He's wistful about an "ordinary" life, but rejects it at every turn. The dude needs some therapy. ;)

and we're right back at the analogy being flawed.

Right, I think I got in over my head with that latest theory/apologia. I'll take my incoherent ramblings over to my own journal now...

Heh heh. Well, the real problem is that you could take *any* story/theory/myth/tale and apply at least some part of it to it. I could go on for pages to try and make the Cinderella story work in relation to Rose. Or the Thumbellina story to...Jack. You can always find *something* that relates. But I think Doctor Who really is unique enough that you're just never going to find an exact relatable match. And I'm not sure you need to.

Yeah, kind of a facile comparison. There was a lot of that back after Doomsday and I think it often went along with the idea that Rose had to choose to leave the Doctor to prove her maturity. Like she was a Lost Boy or something and would never grow up if she stayed. Well...I couldn't disagree more. Like I disagreed with Jackie's little speech in Army of Ghosts. Just because someone would choose that life doesn't mean that she a) doesn't want to grow up and face responsibility or b) will change into someone unrecognizable.

I think it says more about the person assuming those things than about, in this case, Rose herself. But I suspect that's a lot of what fandom is about-interpreting the shows and universes through your own lens and even superimposing your particular issues on it. Say, the prediliction for Dark!Doctor. Sure, the Doctor is capable of cruelty and selfishness. But some fic out there? It's ALL about the writer's particular kink, not necessarily about what actually happens onscreen. Hey, that's what fanfic is for, though.

and I think it often went along with the idea that Rose had to choose to leave the Doctor to prove her maturity. Like she was a Lost Boy or something and would never grow up if she stayed.

This baffles me. On the one hand I've heard that the only way for Rose to "grow up" was to leave the Doctor. Have yet to figure that one out. And on the other hand I've heard that the point of Rose's journey with the Doctor was to "grow up" and so then could leave him. Which...how pointless. Rose could "grow up" just from living life.

Just because someone would choose that life doesn't mean that she a) doesn't want to grow up and face responsibility or b) will change into someone unrecognizable.

Exactly! Completely disagreed with Jackie's speech as well. a) Another concept I have yet to figure out. b) To hell with time travel, people mature/change/grow/whatever from *life*. Even if Rose would have never met the Doctor, I would have *hoped* Rose would have naturally become unrecognizable to that Powel Estate life.

But I suspect that's a lot of what fandom is about-interpreting the shows and universes through your own lens and even superimposing your particular issues on it.

Oh hell yeah. I do that myself. :D And even though I know this, I still have a tendency to be "were we watching the same thing??" when I see opinions that differ from my own. Heh.

Say, the prediliction for Dark!Doctor. Sure, the Doctor is capable of cruelty and selfishness. But some fic out there? It's ALL about the writer's particular kink, not necessarily about what actually happens onscreen. Hey, that's what fanfic is for, though.

Yup. Some of its done well (well, going from prior fandoms since I've only read about 5 DW fics in total). But some you're left wondering why people aren't instead writing original fic. :D

Some of its done well (well, going from prior fandoms since I've only read about 5 DW fics in total). But some you're left wondering why people aren't instead writing original fic.,

Definitely. Although I do get that intepretations differ, some things I read I just think...um, no way that's in character. Not even close. Good writing, though.

And on the other hand I've heard that the point of Rose's journey with the Doctor was to "grow up" and so then could leave him. Which...how pointless. Rose could "grow up" just from living life.

I do think that Rose may have learnt some things traveling the Doctor that it would have taken longer to assimilate in her old life. Besides the obvious 'dealing with alien threats' thing, that is. But yes, I also tend to think... there IS no point to traveling with the Doctor other than it's an adventure and the trip of a lifetime. Who wouldn't jump at that? Maybe some of the 'Rose needs to grow up and leave' viewpoint comes from the fact that Rose wanted to stay and it seems the Doctor was okay with her staying. Has that ever happened before with a companion? I suspect some fans were ready for her to exist stage right long before she did and the suggestion that she might not EVER leave subverts the natural order of things.

I do think that Rose may have learnt some things traveling the Doctor that it would have taken longer to assimilate in her old life. Besides the obvious 'dealing with alien threats' thing, that is.

Oh yeah. Completely agree. :)

But yes, I also tend to think... there IS no point to traveling with the Doctor other than it's an adventure and the trip of a lifetime. Who wouldn't jump at that?

Yeah, that's really my way of looking at it as well.

Maybe some of the 'Rose needs to grow up and leave' viewpoint comes from the fact that Rose wanted to stay and it seems the Doctor was okay with her staying. Has that ever happened before with a companion?

Have no idea, actually. :-\ I mean, there were a lot of implications in School Reunion, etc. that Rose may have been the first case of the Doctor being okay with her wanting to stay for the rest of her life, but I don't actually *know.* I'm sure someone will probably eventually wander by that does know though. :D

I suspect some fans were ready for her to exist stage right long before she did and the suggestion that she might not EVER leave subverts the natural order of things.

Oh, that too. *sigh*

I mean, there were a lot of implications in School Reunion, etc. that Rose may have been the first case of the Doctor being okay with her wanting to stay for the rest of her life, but I don't actually *know.*

Just clarifying since this was bugging me the way I didn't provide backup. (imadork)

In School Reunion there was the flailing and the OMGYOUWILLDIE knee-jerk of the Doctor, first to Sarah Jane and then to Rose. Which to me says that if companions didn't leave of their own accord, his M.O. has been to shuttle them out the door in some way after a couple of years and then not look back.

I think his logic is severely flawed in this aspect, but whatever. He's got issues.

But by Army of Ghosts, the Doctor actually has a happy smile when Rose says she's staying with him "forever." No more flailing. Of course, the shipper in me says that this was love having grown to a point that it was finally stronger than that old fear. *PETS*

But by Army of Ghosts, the Doctor actually has a happy smile when Rose says she's staying with him "forever." No more flailing. Of course, the shipper in me says that this was love having grown to a point that it was finally stronger than that old fear. *PETS*

Yes, to me, this is the final answer on whether the Doctor was okay with it. He ASKED her. He wanted to hear her say it. Would she actually have stayed forever? According to RTD, yes. In real life( so to speak), maybe not. But the insinuation to me is that people come and go in his life, no one ever wants to stay beyond a few years or something happens to keep them from staying and he's just become accustomed to that. No one stays. Nothing lasts forever. Rose does want to stay and although he's initially scared, he comes to believe her and want it too. Which is why it's so sad in the end. I know a lot of fans didn't like the relationship between Ten and Rose because they felt it was too cliquish and smug. Me, I can't begrudge them their joy in each other's company, knowing how it's going to end.

Yes, to me, this is the final answer on whether the Doctor was okay with it. He ASKED her. He wanted to hear her say it.

Yup! Exactly. You're right - not only just okay with it, but really *wanted* her to say that.

Would she actually have stayed forever? According to RTD, yes. In real life( so to speak), maybe not.

Well, it was a dangerous life, so it could have been a relatively short life, sadly. And you just never know about relationships - sure they could have split up 10 years down the road. (Of course, not in *my* sunshine and puppy dog world... ;) )

But the insinuation to me is that people come and go in his life, no one ever wants to stay beyond a few years or something happens to keep them from staying and he's just become accustomed to that. No one stays. Nothing lasts forever. Rose does want to stay and although he's initially scared, he comes to believe her and want it too.

Yeah, totally. He's got this guard up because everything in the past *has* been like that. And so Rose has always been the one that has needed to push those barriers when it's come to their relationship.

Which is why it's so sad in the end. I know a lot of fans didn't like the relationship between Ten and Rose because they felt it was too cliquish and smug. Me, I can't begrudge them their joy in each other's company, knowing how it's going to end.

Hell, I was fine with it long before knowing there would be an end. They were supremely happy and vastly content being together. I just can't be "I'm sorry, but you're really *too* happy and that's not allowed" about it.

As far as the Ten/Rose suddenly being a clique thing, that's another eyebrow raise for me. Oh sure, he mocked Mickey unmercifully. But Nine did that from *day one.* The Doctor probably wouldn't be the Doctor if he wasn't mocking Mickey. (Poor Mickey. He really was too easy of a target. And of course he made the fatal mistake of dating Rose once upon a time. ;))

And if we're going to split Doctors, Nine kept trying to actually *sever* Rose from her home. Talk about clique! Ten actually seemed to like Mickey and Jackie in his own way. Part of this I think comes from the new personality, but part I really do think is from going through Bad Wolf and Rose coming back for him even when she could have been safe at home. He doesn't have to keep trying to cut her ties since he now knows he's not going to lose her that way. Shoot, he actually hugs them and sits down to dinner with them, and this after a year of a "too domestic" mantra.

And if we're going to split Doctors, Nine kept trying to actually *sever* Rose from her home. Talk about clique! Ten actually seemed to like Mickey and Jackie in his own way.

HA, can you imagine what Nine would have done if Jackie had kissed him like she did Ten? There wouldn't even have been one of those little smoke trails. No, I agree that Ten and Rose weren't offensive. The only time that I cringed a little was at the beginning of Rise of the Cybermen. But that had more than a little to do with Mickey, because Jack didn't have any trouble fitting in and not being the odd guy out. Mickey grew a lot over the series, but he was kinda pathetic at first, calling the Doctor a thing and all.

They were supremely happy and vastly content being together. I just can't be "I'm sorry, but you're really *too* happy and that's not allowed" about it.

Exactly! That was one of the things in the confidentials that made me go 'wha-at?' Both RTD and David Tennant made reference to the fact that they were too happy and it couldn't last. I thought that was a really odd way to look at it.

HA, can you imagine what Nine would have done if Jackie had kissed him like she did Ten? There wouldn't even have been one of those little smoke trails.

BWAH!!!

No, I agree that Ten and Rose weren't offensive. The only time that I cringed a little was at the beginning of Rise of the Cybermen.

I didn't laugh. At all. Nope...

Okay, there was actually quite a bit of laughing mixed with a small amount of "I really shouldn't be laughing because of poor Mickey." I'm EVIL, I tell you! But by that point I was more than a bit sick of the never-ending "maybe Rose will still love me" which I thought had gone the way of the dodo in "The Parting of the Ways." Although I really liked Mickey when he wasn't moody over Rose.

But that had more than a little to do with Mickey, because Jack didn't have any trouble fitting in and not being the odd guy out. Mickey grew a lot over the series, but he was kinda pathetic at first, calling the Doctor a thing and all.

Yeah, "Most Grown" prize I think has to go to Mickey. Talk about "unrecognizable" compared to "Rose" and "Doomsday." And good for him!

Exactly! That was one of the things in the confidentials that made me go 'wha-at?' Both RTD and David Tennant made reference to the fact that they were too happy and it couldn't last. I thought that was a really odd way to look at it.

I can understand it from an external writing/drama standpoint. But within the internal context of the actual world these two characters live in, no. Doesn't really make sense that happiness cannot last. Neither can you say that happiness will last forever. Relationships are too organic to fit some kind of dramatic formula.

I've never actually read that comparison. Must be because I only stick to shipper and Rose friendly comms. To be honest, I skip a lot of the essays on the Doctor. Some of them can drone on forever. And you had a meltdown and unsubbed from places? I feel so out of the loop.

Well, I really liked the essays there for S1, but the latest one had me saying "WTF?" a lot.

And the meltdown was after Doomsday. Dumped my icons, lost the DW LJ banner, unsubbed from just about every DW community... I just didn't go around advertising it. Heh. CRAZY, I tell you! :D

Was it because you were saddened by the ending?

I think "destroyed" is a better word than "saddened." Heh heh.

I have never come across this Peter Pan=Doctor analogy and I'm quite glad. I've never really been interested in the Peter Pan story because I think it's unhealthy to not want to grow up. I have male friends who subscribe to this belief and it's only gotten them into trouble. Also, J.M.Barrie was not the most mentally stable man and the author's biography has a tendancy of coloring my opinion of the work.

How do people see Rose as Wendy?? O_O That is just.... *is speechless*

I always saw Wendy as WEAK. Rose is the complete opposite of her. She takes her future into her own hands. *grumbles at people who don't think their meta through and smudge facts to fit their theories*

I've never really been interested in the Peter Pan story because I think it's unhealthy to not want to grow up. I have male friends who subscribe to this belief and it's only gotten them into trouble.

Well, and it's just not really applicable to the Doctor, IMO. Yes, he has a different mind-set, but, you know, alien. And it's *not* an "I'll never grow up!!" mindset. If anything it's "can't we have a little fun since I've had way too much bad shit in my life?" mindset.

How do people see Rose as Wendy?? O_O That is just.... *is speechless*

I *think* the tendency is to paint all companions as a Wendy. People like to use the "Wendy can only be in Neverland for a short while but then chooses to grow up" aspect of it for the reason of the constant rotation of companions. But I *really* don't think people think that analogy all the way through. In actuality, that analogy really ends up devaluing the Doctor's character to the point of him becoming a mere catalyst, and somewhat of a joke, which I don't think is the intent.

And while I know I've said in the past that Rose was my favorite character, I still do love the character of the Doctor and the implications of the Peter Pan/Wendy thing makes me cranky for him. Heh heh.

I always saw Wendy as WEAK. Rose is the complete opposite of her. She takes her future into her own hands.

Yeah, Wendy is a very passive character in the whole story, depending on "adult" logic and sensibilities to get her through. Not only Rose, but I kinda doubt any companion has ever been like this.

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