Oh, Doctor Who fandom. You crazy outhouse rat.

[mrv3000]

Was snickering the other day at a mention of someone looking at some fandom discussion and then running like hell. Reminded me that a while back I'd typed up my own personal experience with the Doctor Who fandom when I entered at the beginning of S2. Not that I've really participated, just have watched it all.

Some have great experiences, some have lousy. This is mine as a Doctor/Rose shipper. It's why I hide from large communities and cling to my flist. I'm not even *tempted* to look at what goes on in the big communities.

Am I looking for some kind of "pet me, I'm a victim" thing? Nooooo. I'm trying to warn people. Stay the hell away from fandom!

ETA: Now some spoilers for S3 in the comments.

My Exposure to Doctor Who Fandom

The Players

D/R Shippers: The all-inclusive pool of Doctor/Rose shippers, which runs the gamut from mildly interested in the pairing, to scarily militant.

Does-Not-Like-Rose Fen (DNLRF): Fen who had decided that Rose was the worst thing to happen to Doctor Who. Reasons varied, including "because she's poor." (You know, because being lower-class is WRONG.) A subset of this is the Does-Not-Like-Rose-Fen Fen, but let's keep things simple.

Branched-off D/R Shippers: Shippers who, over time, have begun to cling together after getting sick of the DNLRF.

*

D/R Shippers: OMGSQUEE!

DNLRF: *runs in* WRONG! You are WRONG! And here are 25 old-school reasons why.

D/R Shippers: :( *tries again* SQUEE!!

DNLRF: *runs in* STILL WRONG!

D/R Shippers: SQUEE?

DNLRF: *runs in* WROOOOOOOOONG!

D/R Shippers: pthththt! SQUEEE!

DNLRF: *runs in* You're so fucking wrong and it's really sad you can't see your own wrongness.

D/R Shippers: SCREW YOU!

DNLRF: *runs in* HAHAHAHAHA! You're so totally wanky!

D/R Shippers: LEAVE US ALONE!

DNLRF: *runs in* NO! As you are wanky and STILL need to be constantly told how wrong you are!

D/R Shippers: @#$@#$!!!!

DNLRF: *runs in* BWAH! Wankers! You all totally suck! Oh, and are WRONG!

Branched-off D/R Shippers: *watches old school Who* Okay, where the *hell* are the DNLRF getting their "canon" from?

D/R Shippers: *a year after Rose is gone* Awww! SQUEE!!

DNLRF: Aren't you listening?? WRONG!!!! Oh, and even your fic is wrong!

Branched-off D/R Shippers: Nuts to this! *burrows down into approximately 57 locked journals and communities*

DNLRF: Why can't these people MOVE ON?!!! We've been pounding this into them for over a year!

Branched-off D/R Shippers: *from inside hole* Yeeeah. Screw you. We've got booze and snacks and squee down here. *adds more salt to the margaritas*

ETA: OMG, I totally want a margarita now. I'm like craving one.

Comments

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

Reasons varied, including "because she's poor."

If only staying away from fandom would work. Apparently aj had a random stranger on the Tube in London give her this "well, duh!!" attitude about explaining that Rose wasn't good enough for the Doctor because she was "low." And several other random strangers agreed and gave every impression of thinking Aj was looneytunes for not getting the obviousness of it.

Humans is just skeery critters. O_o

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

WTFF?? O_O

Holy crap, is this some sort of...British thing or something? Is class really this huge issue? You know, if it is, it's quite possible then that RTD had a *point* he was trying to make as he tends to like the social commentary.

[katesutton.livejournal.com]

o.O Oh, Lord. I'd seen that reaction on lj and on TwoP-rejoicing that Rose and Jackie were gone, because they were annoying and low-class. I....what? If RTD was trying to make a point, more power to him. Because that's just icky.

[poohmusings.livejournal.com]

Am I looking for some kind of "pet me, I'm a victim" thing?

*pets you, the victim* :)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Dork!

[kammgirl.livejournal.com]

You POSTED it. I love this and sing it sister. Who fandom made me embrace my former fandoms with utter relief. They can be wanky as hell, but nothing is as ugly as Who. And heh I have had a similiar reaction after watching old school. And after seeing Martha I keep wondering where the completely competent companion I kept hearing about is. We must all be watching different shows.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

You POSTED it. I love this and sing it sister.

Heh. I was in a mood today and brought it from out of the 57 locked journals...

Who fandom made me embrace my former fandoms with utter relief. They can be wanky as hell, but nothing is as ugly as Who.

It's just nasty. And people just utterly obsessed with other fandom groups. Haven't seen this since the SG-1 shipwars.

And heh I have had a similiar reaction after watching old school. And after seeing Martha I keep wondering where the completely competent companion I kept hearing about is. We must all be watching different shows.

Have you watched the rest of S3 yet? Because I see Martha the competent companion. That's one thing I do see in her. It's other things that have made me nuts with the character. One being the very little they've given in the way of characterization for her.

[debs7.livejournal.com]

yep still funny after all this time.

Not to mention completey true!

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I'd imagine some reading this will be like...yeah, right. But no. Sadly, this is pretty much accurate.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

You know, this still makes me crack up, even though I've already read it like a dozen times. It's only so funny because it's true, though.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Mwah! :D *pets shippy underground intertubes*

[jedi_of_urth]

Seems like, if we all stuck our heads out of our little hidey holes of Branched-off D/R Shipping, we'd probably realize that we're everywhere, we've just been hunkering down because the DNLRF have been trying to destroy us, because their ideas about Doctor Who canon are at least as radical as ours, ours is just a good focus for them to hate on.

And yes, this foxhole is quite nice (passes snacks).

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

We *are* like prairie dogs! :D And it is *so* nice to be able to squee in peace. So, so nice.

[pixiesio.livejournal.com]

Oy and vei! I so don't get the DNLRF's attitude either. I'm technically an "old schooler" since I watched back in the day, but I guess not having known anything about fandom in those days saved me from becoming so bitter and, as my Scottish bud hwcarnage put it, a "snobby ponce". ;)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Snobby ponce! I love it. :D

Thing is, I've watched a *lot* of the classic series now. Based on fandom I honestly thought I'd run into the reason Rose is bad and the whole thing is flat-out wrong. I mean, really. I was bracing myself for it. But...classic Who is all about bubble-wrap aliens. And giant clams. I've still yet to find where New Who contradicts any *character* stuff about the Doctor. If anything, episodes like The Green Death make me all the happier that the Doctor finally found that someone special. (And then sad as they ripped her away from him.)

[amarettolime25.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes. I've seen the argument that Martha is better for the Doctor because she's not a "chav" like Rose was. Stuff like that makes me want to pull my hair out. Or when people say they don't like Rose because she was a Mary Sue or Saint Rose and then proceed to make a list of all the times she's screwed up. I do not understand their logic.

Can I have a virgin margarita?

[miladyhawke.livejournal.com]

There's an entire thread devoted to Rose as a canon Sue over on GAFF, and I swear to god I don't understand it. Like you said, how can she be a Sue when she's imperfect? She's realistic and well-rounded, and the only superheroey thing she does is wield the Vortex. The argument for Sue!Rose seems to rest entirely on the fact that the Doctor loves her and nothing else. I'm sorry, but a canon love interest does not automatically a Sue make *snort*

But then, they're over there labelling any female they hate a Sue.

[solielle.livejournal.com]

Hee!

So, this is always what comes to mind when fandom gets all crazy like that:

"Screw you! I'm gonna go build my own corner of fandom! With blackjack! And booze! In fact, forget the fandom and the blackjack."

I could really go for a martini.

(And seriously, has that ever worked? In the history of all fandom ever, has someone actually gone, "Really? You think my pairing in crap? Damn, time to toss out all this fanfic and meta I wrote! I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!"?)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

So, this is always what comes to mind when fandom gets all crazy like that:

"Screw you! I'm gonna go build my own corner of fandom! With blackjack! And booze! In fact, forget the fandom and the blackjack."

Bwahahaha! YES.

I could really go for a martini.

I've actually got a margarita right now. And none of this mixer crap either. Can't stand that mix stuff. I tried a real martini once and thought it tasted like a pine tree. Heh. But things like appletinis and chocolatinis - yum!

(And seriously, has that ever worked? In the history of all fandom ever, has someone actually gone, "Really? You think my pairing in crap? Damn, time to toss out all this fanfic and meta I wrote! I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!"?)

Well, you never know! ;)

Eh, we both know it's about trying to make yourself feel better/more important when you put someone else down. Hello, insecurity.

[starlightmoonla.livejournal.com]

Just reading through that brought about bad memories... As mentioned earlier that really is an accurate portrayal of what I've been seeing in the different forums. Just yesterday I went to the OG forums and looked at some of the threads and seriously anytime Rose was mentioned posts that included comments such as "Rose is gone. Get over it" and the whole "you're wrong we're right" vibe would be apparent... and it would get nasty. Stops me from actually wanting to post something because someone will find that it's necessary to waste both of our times, telling me how wrong I am and how right they are. It's stupid, sad and brings the overall joy of the fandom down for me.

." (You know, because being lower-class is WRONG.)

Amazingly enough I haven't heard about this particular one... well actually no I've read a lot of posts where some people refer to Rose as a "chav" which I believe is a derogatory term and thus similar to the whole lower class issue. Either way I'm actually quite shocked to hear that class is such an issue over there. I'm sure RTD is trying to make a point through his vision of Doctor Who and I applaud him for it.

ETA: OMG, I totally want a margarita now. I'm like craving one.

*makes a margarita* Here ya go!

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

and seriously anytime Rose was mentioned posts that included comments such as "Rose is gone. Get over it"

Maybe since they can't tell the Doctor (and RTD) to get over it, they're taking it out on fen?

Stops me from actually wanting to post something because someone will find that it's necessary to waste both of our times, telling me how wrong I am and how right they are. It's stupid, sad and brings the overall joy of the fandom down for me.

Yeah, it's why I just don't really care to get into it outside of my flist. My flist, who does have opposing views, will bring intelligent arguments that can be batted around. That "because you're wrong" stuff - pointless.

Amazingly enough I haven't heard about this particular one... well actually no I've read a lot of posts where some people refer to Rose as a "chav" which I believe is a derogatory term and thus similar to the whole lower class issue. Either way I'm actually quite shocked to hear that class is such an issue over there. I'm sure RTD is trying to make a point through his vision of Doctor Who and I applaud him for it.

I had heard it a couple of months after S2 was done - this whole thing about Rose not being good enough for the Doctor. (Fandom stuff is sometimes slow in getting to me.) There was much eye-rolling and me thinking that *any* human wouldn't be good enough for the Doctor based on those kinds of measurements. And I wrote it off to parts of fandom just really hating Rose and using anything they could grab onto to try and show how it was bad. Basically wrote it off because it's INSANE. But to find out it's kinda part of the mindset? O_O

[marble-rose.livejournal.com]

I love how you always say that the DNLRF *runs in*. That's so true. Even when I'm minding my own business with other D/R shippers, they still feel the need to come in and rain on my parade. Pfft! Canon supports my views far more than it supports theirs, so hah!

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I love how you always say that the DNLRF *runs in*. That's so true. Even when I'm minding my own business with other D/R shippers, they still feel the need to come in and rain on my parade. Pfft!

Yeah, it was like...every bloody time. EVERY time. You couldn't have a ship discussion without someone coming in and pointing out the WRONGNESS. Oh sure, I've seen people saying, "well, you should expect debate and opposing viewpoints blah blah blah." Okay, fine. But Jesus Christ. These people were on a mission from God to make sure that no ship discussion went un-countered. I have NEVER seen anything like it. I just cannot imagine, nor have I seen, where any pairing (slash or ship) for any fandom in a community for that pairing is constantly knocked down. And the knocking down is accepted and PRAISED.

I'm never afraid of debate (especially in this fandom as, like you said, I've got just TONS of canon to always support my arguments), but sometimes you just want to squee with like-minded people. Instead of trying to be converted or some damn thing. Converted! Yes! That's what it was like! We must all see the light of the wrongness of this pairing! *waves hands* Praise the slutboi alien tease who loves everyone and never ever ever saw Rose as anything special! *waves hands again*

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

I am probably twice the age of your average fan. I came into all this about a year ago and it's been a revelation, not always a very pleasant one. I didn't really grasp what was going on until I started writing Martha as the rounded human being we didn't seem to be getting on TV. By then I was already identified as a Ten/Rose shipper, but I hadn't realised what that label meant, and the sense of betrayal some people would feel, on both sides. In my innocence I'd thought that it would be okay to write Martha as nice-not-shippy, but I soon found that wasn't allowed. At least, not in the militant communities. It was always going to upset somebody.

What scares me was that after a few days of flaming I was as batshit as everyone else. I remember somebody saying that Rose was just the spoilt brat only child of a doting single mum, crying out for attention. And that upset me terribly, because I am the only child of a single mum myself.

And in the end I assume it's that personal, vicarious identification with the Doctor's love object that makes fandom of that type so vicious. I wasn't immune and that came as a shock. If you see youself as Martha, you'll find Rose threatening, and vice versa.

In the end, most of all, I want to see the Doctor happy. I happen to think Rose is the person to make that happy, but if she really isn't coming back, I'd rather see him happy alone or with someone else, than the way he is right now.

And I suspect that a lot of the old-skool fans are male, and they are generally unhappy about what they see as a touchy-feely invasion of their batty little kingdom.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I came into all this about a year ago and it's been a revelation, not always a very pleasant one.

Fortunately I've watched a ship war go down about 5 years ago, and so this time around, I fled fairly quickly. Someone was telling me the other day that they got into DW and D/R just a short time ago. And were extremely confused upon entering the fandom, wondering if she was watching a different show than everyone else. Fortunately, she found our little ship hole.

I didn't really grasp what was going on until I started writing Martha as the rounded human being we didn't seem to be getting on TV. By then I was already identified as a Ten/Rose shipper, but I hadn't realised what that label meant, and the sense of betrayal some people would feel, on both sides. In my innocence I'd thought that it would be okay to write Martha as nice-not-shippy, but I soon found that wasn't allowed. At least, not in the militant communities. It was always going to upset somebody.

Yeeeikes! And that's another thing that gets me. I've just NEVER seen this "you are allowed to write this kind of fic or this kind of fic, but NOT this kind of fic" before in fandom. EVER. Because it's INSANE. Fic is *the* place to write the stuff we don't get in canon, whether it's Doctor/Martha OTP fic or Master/Rose fic. I don't like that kind of thing? I don't need to read it. But I don't get to tell someone not to write it.

http://mrv3000.livejournal.com/585139.html

What scares me was that after a few days of flaming I was as batshit as everyone else.

Heh. I can imagine.

And in the end I assume it's that personal, vicarious identification with the Doctor's love object that makes fandom of that type so vicious. I wasn't immune and that came as a shock. If you see youself as Martha, you'll find Rose threatening, and vice versa.

Yeah, probably. Sometimes it does seem like people fighting over the Doctor's affections which really translates to the Doctor loving the *fan* and not the character. In which case, there's not a lot you can do or say to the person without it seeming to become personal.

In the end, most of all, I want to see the Doctor happy. I happen to think Rose is the person to make that happy, but if she really isn't coming back, I'd rather see him happy alone or with someone else, than the way he is right now.

S3 really really surprised me with how low they've brought the Doctor. I'd like to see him happy again too.

And I suspect that a lot of the old-skool fans are male, and they are generally unhappy about what they see as a touchy-feely invasion of their batty little kingdom.

This made me snicker because I can't remember whose husband it was on my flist, but he refuses to acknowledge New Who's existence since it's "chick crap" or something. :D

[angst-angel.livejournal.com]

This is really just such a useful primer. *pets MV*

OMG, BUT THE POOR SQUEE??

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Stay away from fandom, Pam!!

[tsukara.livejournal.com]

Oh, I love you so very much for this (a friend linked me over from her locked-down journal). Unfortunately, locking down my journal wouldn't do any good.

I have to live with a DNLRF. *sigh*

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Awww. Good luck to you and your DNLRF!

[buckbeakbabie.livejournal.com]

I love you. That is exactly what happens. Can I friend you?

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

:D Sure! The more people to squee with, the better!

[hologrphcbuddha.livejournal.com]

Hey dude, I was reading the flist and followed a trail of links and ended up here... anyway, after reading this post, I have concluded that you rule so I'm just gonna have to friend you, if you don't mind. =)

[kammgirl.livejournal.com]

No don't friend her Michelle. She is a trouble maker. Heh ;) Hi Cat.