DW question, surprisingly enough not about D/R (WOW!)

[mrv3000]

Was just thinking about this. And yes, random thoughts tend to make their way to LJ. So, I think it's pretty much Generally Accepted Who (aka fanon) that the regeneration from Eight to Nine happened during the Time War. Whatever it was that the Doctor did to end it all (which is canon - he pushed the button, so to speak, per Sound of Drums) was so catastrophic, that it caused him to regenerate.

But...has it actually ever been *said* in canon that he regenerated due to this specific event? Did they say something in Sound of Drums/LotTL that I'm forgetting? I think I always have it in my mind that Eight was the one to go through the Time War. Could it have been Nine instead? Possibly due to an early battle in the Time War? (He mentioned he fought on the front line.) Or maybe even something that happened before the Time War?

This isn't for some kind of fic or anything. I'm just kinda curious at the moment.

ETA: WOW. I totally need to watch S1 again. In "Rose" he's checking out his ears, so it had to have just happened.

And this makes for my second moronic post this week...

*headdesk*

ETA2: And...you could still question the whole "regeneration due to Time War" thing in a way I hadn't thought of. Nifty!

Comments

[honorh.livejournal.com]

There's actually no canon as to when exactly the Doctor changed from Eight to Nine. However, in the episode "Rose", he looks at a mirror and comments that "It could have been worse" and mutters something about his ears--like he was looking at that face for the first time, or at least that he hadn't been wearing it long enough to be completely used to it. That would seem to suggest that he transitioned to Nine relatively recently, either late in the Time War or sometime after.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I'd just edited my post about the mirror thing. Heh. I'm a dork.

[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

If we're taking votes, I'd say some time after... possibly well after.

[honorh.livejournal.com]

The reason I like the idea that he regenerated as a result of whatever he did to end the Time War is that it gives Nine's series such lovely symmetry. He's forced into an act of genocide which kicks off his ninth incarnation--and we know, thanks to LotTL that he had to make that decision to live--but at the end of that life, he can't commit genocide again. Instead, he dies for love after the Time War's last battle is fought. See? It's pretty!

That said, if it's revealed that Eight survived the Time War and died or purposely regenerated later (which would be a cool idea to play with), I won't be devastated. It's just a pet fanon.

[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

Yep, he's checking out his ears, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is or isn't fresh from the Time War. I personally think it leans against it having happened right at that moment...

White text follows:
...and in my fic, it's specifically mentioned as not being the case, although said mention doesn't have oodles of bearing on the story.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

You'd think that *too* much time couldn't have passed if he'd not been able to check himself out in a mirror yet.

(Which...kinda doesn't jive with the non-Eight clothes, but... *handwaves*)

[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

Not too much time had passed since he'd regenerated. There are no clear indicators given that he regenerated as a direct result of the then-final act of the Time War.

[honorh.livejournal.com]

As people have noted, though, his clothes are very simple as Nine. They're things he could just throw on. It's entirely possible he just hadn't bothered to seek out a mirror--Nine is a good deal less physically vain than Eight or Ten.

[goldy-dollar.livejournal.com]

Kind of randomly related, but [Bad username or site: intrikate88 / @ livejournal.com] posed the question a while ago - how DID Eight ever manage to end the Time War? Does he suddenly get way more badass in the novels and such? Because, gotta say, given the impression I got from the TV movie, I'm not sure I'd ask Eight to come and fight in ANY WAR. He was lovable, but also kind of bumbling and useless.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Eight totally had this huggable-wee-teddy-bear thing going, didn't he? I'm not sure I could see any incarnation go easily through it, but especially Eight.

My *guess* (that I know has been floated by others as well) is that he did something paradox-ish. Send in the Reapers time or something of that variety. And since the Time War seems to have been fought on this different level from normal reality (per the Gelth in Unquiet Dead), it brought an end to the Time Lords and the Daleks, as well as having some fallout on some higher species, but the rest of the universe was oblivious.

[dettiot.livejournal.com]

I don't know if anyone, up to RTD, has an idea of when Eight became Nine. 'Cause in Rose, you've got the Photoshop!Photo!of!Doom, with Nine in Eight-type clothes with the family that he saves from the Titanic, which to me implies the Titanic thing happened right after he regenerated and before Nine had time to find clothes for himself. But then, you've got the mirror scene, in Rose, aka the same exact episode, where he acts like he hasn't any idea of what he looks like!

But I do agree that the regeneration happened far enough in advance of Rose so that the Doctor was over that initial shock. And, as some one else pointed out, Nine is a lot less vain than Ten for sure. ;-)

[honorh.livejournal.com]

*Physically* vain, I said; Nine was plenty vain intellectually. I'm pretty sure he'd have delivered the "I'd even call you a genius, except I'm in the room" line to Lumic, too. But yeah, I can't see Nine doing like Ten and preening in front of the Wardrobe Room mirror.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I don't know if anyone, up to RTD, has an idea of when Eight became Nine.

Oh, I kinda doubt he knows.

RTD: Oh! I just thought of something! We can have the Time Lords be...elves! COOL!

Minion: But...doesn't that leave gaping plot holes for all of time?

RTD: Now what have I said about using the P H words?

Minion: I know. *hangs head and walks to the door*

RTD: And make sure there are two coats of wax on the car this time!

'Cause in Rose, you've got the Photoshop!Photo!of!Doom

*snorts*

with Nine in Eight-type clothes with the family that he saves from the Titanic, which to me implies the Titanic thing happened right after he regenerated and before Nine had time to find clothes for himself. But then, you've got the mirror scene, in Rose, aka the same exact episode, where he acts like he hasn't any idea of what he looks like!

I've pondered about that for a while, and have decided to put that Titanic thing off in the ten seconds he left Rose in the end. She turned him down, he went tooling around for a while, but something about that blonde in 21st century London kept niggling at his mind. So he went back.

[debs7.livejournal.com]

My personal view of the way it happened was the Eight pressed the button - wiped out everyone, he expected to die as well. For some reason he didn't and regenerated into Nine. Then because Nine basically hates himself he doesn't care what he looks like so doesn't look in the mirror and after being extrememly depressed for a while, the TARDIS kicks him in the butt and he starts helping out the universe again.

Absolutely no basis in canon but it's the way I see it.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

You know, that wouldn't surprise me at all. I could easily see intending on sacrificing himself as well, but something went wrong. Or right. (Unless they really needed someone to survive, to make sure whatever it was worked, and the Daleks really *were* all destroyed. Or something.)

I like the thought of the TARDIS kicking him in the butt. :D

[professor_mirror]

While there's an indication that Nine had just recently regenerated in "Rose," I don't think there's any indication that it was a direct result of the Time War. We don't really know how "long" ago it was for the Doctor.

That being said, I think it would be totally awesome if Eight had survived the Time War, only to die by, say, running too fast down a set of stairs in the TARDIS and falling and breaking his neck. Or tripping over a duck. Or choking on fish and chips. Or something else entirely random and ridiculous.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Oh, cruel fate! Done in by a duck! :D

[threerings.livejournal.com]

Well, I've always believed that Eight regenerated into Nine as a direct result of the final button-pressing of doom in the Time War. I also think he traveled around for a while before "Rose" and we just have to assume he never really noticed his face before. Actually, I like the idea that it was only when he met Rose that he bothered checking to see if he was attractive at all.

"Mmm, cute blond, I wonder if she would go for me. Hmm, the ears might be a problem."

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Awww! That's a bit adorable. :D

[queenrikki-hp.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't know how much this adds to the discussion but I do remember from the Who is Doctor Who site that used to go along with the show, there was a list of "sightings".

Steven Hudson
I saw him a couple a years ago outside a new building development in Totters Lane, East London. The guy seemed really confused and keep muttering, "They’re all gone, I'm the only one left". The man was either a complete loon or was drunk. Looking back I think he was probably drunk as he looked as if he'd been to a fancy dress party. He was wearing some old Edwardian outfit, not a leather jacket.

I know it doesn't really count for much but it does support the idea that the Eight/Nine regeneration was the result of whatever he did ot end the war.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

That interpretation would definitely put Eight in the Time War, and possibly Nine in Eight's outfit.

Oh, woe. The thought of him wandering around Totters Lane right after the Time War. *sniffs*

[shaela]

Allow me to pimp my favorite Eight-turns-into-Nine fic. Not that you’ll ever read it. <g>

But canon doesn’t say when or how Eight turned into Nine. I think people latched onto the idea of a post-war regeneration because it felt right. I know I did. Symmetry, like honorh said. Still, I’d be willing to set that aside if they wanted to actually tell the story of the Time War.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Not that you’ll ever read it.

I'm that transparent, aren't I? :D

But canon doesn’t say when or how Eight turned into Nine. I think people latched onto the idea of a post-war regeneration because it felt right. I know I did. Symmetry, like honorh said. Still, I’d be willing to set that aside if they wanted to actually tell the story of the Time War.

*nods* That's pretty much my feeling on the matter.

[sundaydriver.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the late comment, but I wanted to put in my two cents real quick.

I've always assumed that Eight regenerated into Nine because of his actions in the Time War. And that he probably then took time to regroup, traveled around for a bit and eventually met up with Rose. But I'm also willing to believe that Eight survived whatever he had to do to end the Time War and then threw himself into more and more dangerous situations, eventually regenerating as a result of a random, stupid act. I know Eight seems kind of bumbling in the movie, but having gone through the Time War, I can see how he would change, become harder and more closed off, and more than willing to push the limit in order to punish himself.

Either way, it's kind of fun to debate when he would've changed into Nine and what led up to that regeneration. :)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

You know, that would be downright fascinating to see this embittered Eight. He was the incarnation most like a wee puppy that only wanted to cuddle. But after going through the Time War...

Man, I so wish they'd do a Time War miniseries. Or even take it on audio if they don't want to spend gobs of money.