(no subject)

[mrv3000]

This is something I've been seeing lately. I'm not involved with any of it, but see it pop up on my flist.

The problem with a fic review site - any fic review site (positive or negative) - is that it's not intended to help the author at all. Oh, it may give the lofty purpose of helping the author, but reviews are entertainment, pure and simple. If Roger Ebert reviews a film, he's not sitting there trying to help the film become better, he's writing/speaking to an audience of people who have nothing to do with the film. A fic review is exactly the same. It speaks to readers, telling them the good, the bad and the ugly. A reviewer wants as many people to read the review as possible to warn them from or nudge them in the direction of the fic. Anyone who claims "it's for the author's sake" is, quite frankly, full of it.

Concrit can be a beautiful beautiful thing. Hopefully your betas will get everything before the fic is released to the world, but stuff slips by. And on the rare occasions when you get someone who wants to go over style and structure with your fic, that can be a real learning experience. However, if that concrit is done in a public manner - especially in a "review" style - it stops being wanting to help the author, and becomes all about "look how smart this review/concrit is for being able to point all this stuff out - this review/concrit deserves its own kudos for being so brilliant." So if someone wants to give concrit, but they have to have to have to have people other than the author see it, I'm really going to question their concrit motives. A LOT.

People can obviously say/do whatever they want, including review the hell out of fanfics. For as long as there's been fandom, there've been people around to give praises and/or beatings. But all that freedom and stuff means I can also call bullshit on the "it's all for the author" logic of fic reviews.

Comments

[joyfulfeather.livejournal.com]

O.o There's confusion over this concept?

"My fic review site is meant to help authors become better!" is a bunch of self-important nonsense. I can't believe -- wait, this is fandom. Of course I believe it -- I wish it wasn't true that people were saying things like that. Reviews are for the readers, not for the writers. Yes, an author can get good info out of negative reviews; I've heard pro writers say they read their Amazon reviews and get a lot of information out of the 2 and 3 star ones. But no one writes an Amazon review for the sake of the author, and I can't imagine anyone publically posts fic reviews for the sake of the writer. In either case, you want to talk to them, you email them.

So yeah, basically, I agree with you. Fandom keeps coming up with new things to faceplam over.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

O.o There's confusion over this concept?

You'd think it'd be a given, but apparently not.

Reviews are for the readers, not for the writers. Yes, an author can get good info out of negative reviews; I've heard pro writers say they read their Amazon reviews and get a lot of information out of the 2 and 3 star ones. But no one writes an Amazon review for the sake of the author, and I can't imagine anyone publically posts fic reviews for the sake of the writer. In either case, you want to talk to them, you email them.

Exactly. Can we just call a duck a duck instead of trying to pass it off as a goose?

So yeah, basically, I agree with you. Fandom keeps coming up with new things to faceplam over.

Just when you think you've seen it all...

[larissa-j.livejournal.com]

"My fic review site is meant to help authors become better!"

WAIT! I understand this logic. So if I pop into people's lj's and tell them they are wankers, idiots and a**holes, I'm only trying to help them be better?

Who knew?

[papilio-luna.livejournal.com]

I think I've decided there are three very separate things that we do in response to fanfic:

1. Comment (Just a thank you to the author: I read it, I was here, thanks for doing this for free and entertaining me. People call them "reviews" but they're really not. The audience is the author and the goal is to just pop your head up and say thanks.)
2. Review (A sample opinion aimed at other readers, giving them a clue as to whether or not they might want to spend the time to read the fic.)
3. Concrit (Doesn't happen that often outside of beta relationships, and when it does happen it's not usually in public because the goal is only to help the author become a better writer, not to prove anything to anyone else.)

They are all separate, distinct things and getting them mixed up in your mind can only lead to tears, I think.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Yes! Excellent distinctions!

[caffey.livejournal.com]

Word.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

It's been driving me a bit bonkers lately.

[larissa-j.livejournal.com]

I'm really going to question their concrit motives. A LOT.

It's so ironic how this fandom tries to sound so educated and winds up behaving like a bunch of high school girls while trying to mock a certain section of fandom by calling them high school girls.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

It's headache-inducing. The Mrs. White from Clue flames headache. :D

[shinyopals.livejournal.com]

Gotta love people who pretend they're doing the author a service by deigning to make snarky comments about their fic. I guess they're trying to legitimise their snark.

Like you said, nasty reviews are always going to exist, but passing it off as helpful is silly.

In short: I AGREE.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Like a wise person once said: own your shit, people! Putting a big bow on something isn't going to change what it is.

[ginamak.livejournal.com]

WORD. So. Much. WORD.

Concrit is only for the author--there's no real need to post it publicly. Now, often in comments I'll ask questions about something in the text, but then it's because I'm interested and want to know more. In that case it's not crit, it's curiosity, and I feel comfortable posting that publicly because (A) I hope the author takes it as the compliment it is--they made me curious about something, and (B) others might have the same question.

But yeah, anything that claims to be concrit that's made public is more about the reviewer wanting to look superior.

There's a place for reviews--even ones that eviscerate an author or fic--but let's call them what they are.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Concrit is only for the author--there's no real need to post it publicly. Now, often in comments I'll ask questions about something in the text, but then it's because I'm interested and want to know more. In that case it's not crit, it's curiosity, and I feel comfortable posting that publicly because (A) I hope the author takes it as the compliment it is--they made me curious about something, and (B) others might have the same question.

*nods* I've done that myself. (Opal's fic where I commented, trying to work out her whole time technology thing she had going.)

There's a place for reviews--even ones that eviscerate an author or fic--but let's call them what they are.

EXACTLY. I'm not trying to demand that fandom stop writing fic reviews, but can we PLEASE recognize them for what they really are?

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Oy.

[kammgirl.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen this. Did something happen in a fic comm? But I do agree with the sentiments.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Oh, it has to do with the fic awards, which is a whole other rant.

[goldy-dollar.livejournal.com]

*nods*

And it's... fanfiction. It's *different* than original pieces that you're getting paid to write. To me, fanfiction is about your love of the characters and the story, and the opportunity to share that with others. Yes, becoming a better writer can be a part of that, but it's not the *reason* I started writing fic. I started for purely fannish reasons - the characters were talking to me, and I went with it, and it was a lot of fun.

Having a fic torn down in public for the sake of being critical really strikes at the heart of what I think fandom is/should be about. It makes it so it's not fun anymore or about sharing your love for the characters - suddenly it's personal. That's not to say that criticism isn't valuable or that becoming a better writer isn't a worthy goal, but I think that's something that happens over time, and something we fic writers rely on our beta readers for.

For me, fandom is really about the squee. I know other people might not see it that way, but I don't think it's wrong. It's a hobby, and there's lots of other places in my life where I can go to if I need more stress.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

*NODS*

Trying to better yourself is always good, but the point of my writing isn't to better myself as a writer. I don't want put out something that's crap by any means, but the goal of my writing isn't to become queen of the written word. My goal is to 1) entertain myself while writing it, and 2) share a story with others who hopefully won't feel like they wasted their time reading it.

For some people it is about bettering themselves as writers, and good on them, but that's not why I write.

[chloris67.livejournal.com]

I'm not a writer, so I've been completely staying out of all this wank. Until now. *g* However, I completely agree that reviews are for the readers. Anyone who claims their reviews are for the writers is being disingenuous at best. I suppose some of the shock is because negative feedback is almost unheard of in fandom. I've read through the reviews at the comm and I must say that the more recent ones are much more informative and less dismissive (not necessarily positive, but the early reviews didn't even give a reader much to go on as to the worth of the story). If they had started like this, I'd feel more positive about them.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I haven't actually gone over there and read anything. The positive review site either. I just don't care that much on someone's thoughts about a fic - positive or negative. If I read a fic, I'm quite capable of coming to my own positive and/or negative thoughts.

But when I saw someone claim the review site as being for the benefit of the writer and should be thought of as concrit, I think I hurt myself rolling my eyes that hard.

[jesidres.livejournal.com]

WORD, WOMAN.

I also saw something particularly baffling- People reviewing fics of a category that they quite obviously hated, to the point they were missing the major points. Yet they seem under the impression that their opinion will somehow help people and those writers.

Uh, yeah...NO.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

HEH. Like someone who loathes wienerdogs judging a wienerdog competition. Sure they probably have basic discernment skills, but if they're forever bitching about the short little legs, how can that be a very good judging?

[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

Fic reviews can serve an educational purpose for authors, but that is not their reason for existence. This recent phenomenon of people dragging well-liked fics through the mud over things like commas, a single adjective that was not used incorrectly but which the reviewer didn't like, lj-coding errors and the like just screams sour grapes to me.

Picking on people over (debatably) poor grammar or diction, or misuse of punctuation (even more debatable, when such guidelines vary widely depending on the style guide to which one adheres) is classic passive-aggressive behavior. They don't want to be called on saying anything negative about the inherent nature of a fic, so they wrap up their dislikes in a pretense of neutrality and use that as a defense whenever their motives are questioned.

There certainly are fics out there that are quite popular that I don't care for, for a wide variety of reasons. But if I were going to start a ficbitching journal - and let's be honest, that's all the journal(s) we're talking about are - I'd call it ficsidontlike and be done with it.

Having said that, I can see where folks might want to see a comm that reviews fics in an more neutral manner on balance - say, where each fic is reviewed twice, once by someone who likes it, and once by someone who doesn't like it, with each reviewer being required to lay out very specific and clear reasoning for why they did or didn't care for a fic.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Fic reviews can serve an educational purpose for authors

It's possible, sure. Although in that format I'm thinking most authors would bristle and dismiss, rather than get anything from it since it's a lot like loudly pointing out that your fly is open in front of 400 people.

This recent phenomenon of people dragging well-liked fics through the mud over things like commas, a single adjective that was not used incorrectly but which the reviewer didn't like, lj-coding errors and the like just screams sour grapes to me.

Fandom: telling people "that's not how you do fic/art/meta/anything" for decades.

Picking on people over (debatably) poor grammar or diction, or misuse of punctuation (even more debatable, when such guidelines vary widely depending on the style guide to which one adheres) is classic passive-aggressive behavior. They don't want to be called on saying anything negative about the inherent nature of a fic, so they wrap up their dislikes in a pretense of neutrality and use that as a defense whenever their motives are questioned.

Sounds like it.

There certainly are fics out there that are quite popular that I don't care for, for a wide variety of reasons. But if I were going to start a ficbitching journal - and let's be honest, that's all the journal(s) we're talking about are - I'd call it ficsidontlike and be done with it.

Oh, me too. There are fics I've read that I've seen rec'd over and over that I don't like at all. But I don't sit there stewing if the fic's received 200 comments. I might roll my eyes, but I'm not going to suddenly launch a campaign to "educate" the masses on just how much this fic sucked.

I'm sure people have read some fics I've done, thought them lame, and then boggled that anyone bothered to comment to me. I'd hope that they'd just move on instead of suddenly turning that dislike into a hyper-critical line-by-line analysis of something I wrote for kicks and giggles.

Having said that, I can see where folks might want to see a comm that reviews fics in an more neutral manner on balance - say, where each fic is reviewed twice, once by someone who likes it, and once by someone who doesn't like it, with each reviewer being required to lay out very specific and clear reasoning for why they did or didn't care for a fic.

That could be constructive. I'd also like it if the author could submit their fics for that kind of analysis, instead of just being picked. Yes fics are public and have flown out into the world once they're posted, but for some people (like me) that kind of nitpicking is a fannish joy sucker.

[katesutton.livejournal.com]

I think you're exactly right; concrit can be a wonderful thing, but what it should be -and isn't at all in this particular case-is something that's for the author. Not for the fandom at large. That's the part of the 'constructive' bit of the criticism. I have a hard time seeing how letting anyone who wanders past your journal know why you thought X plot and Y piece of grammar sucked helps the author.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

*nods*

Like I mentioned in a comment, it's sort of like yelling and pointing to let someone know their fly is undone. Someone trying to be honestly helpful will do it as quietly and privately as possible. Someone who wants to lolz about it, will make sure as many people know about it as possible while they're "helping."

[rattus-aerius.livejournal.com]

But fanfic is SRS BIDNESS!!!#!Eleven!!NO!!Ten!!%!!

When I first heard about this I kind of understood why they were doing it and doing it anon because some people get angry if you say anything they perceive as bad about their fic. But the more I've read about it and seen what's going on the more ridiculous it all becomes. It's just fanfic awards. They're not handing out the Nobel Prize for literature.

Most people aren't going to pay any attention to any of the reviews. They'll vote for their favorite fics. Nothing wrong with that. It's fandom. It's supposed to be fun. If it's not you might want to step away from the keyboard for awhile.

Personally though I find the pretentious asshattery and posturing rather amusing. ;)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Well, I've got a whole other rant about fanfic awards that boils down to that. Any time you have awards that have open voting, they're swimsuit competitions. That doesn't mean that the winners and/or the nominees aren't great fics - they could be the most brilliant things ever - but fic awards are what they are.

Not only will the vast majority never read the fic reviews (either the positive or the negative), I seriously doubt they'll even read all the fics in a category, much less vote based on any sort of writing standards. And that's...just the way it is, no matter how hard you might try to "educate" the public about it. I much prefer awards that have titles like "Favorite Fluff" instead of "Best Fluff," since "best" implies some sort of standard.

But to think that fanfic awards mean anything different, you can gets into all kinds of badness. Like hurt feelings that a losing fic wasn't as good as the winning fic, when it has absolutely nothing to do with "as good as."

[gowdie.livejournal.com]

Can I just say I love you so very, very hard for this? And all the comments.

*Loves. Very, very hard.*

And that's all I'm going to say about that.

*Tries to find an icon that expresses enough love. Doesn't have one.*

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

:D

The whole thing seemed to be getting to the point of insanity, and...well, I'd thought about ignoring it all. But the facepalming was starting to hurt.

[harpinred.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with you on the concrit thing - although I have seen some balanced sites - but I imagine that it's a pain in the rear to keep neutral.

As far as the awards go though, I have to say that while I agree with you on the fact that a lot of people will simply vote for their favorites, I've managed to find several new author's and stories that I'd never seen before and wouldnt' have found were it not for the nomination processes since a lot of them are on personal LJ pages rather than the more common groups that I belong to. I guess I look at it as a big fic rec page, stay with the Dr./Rose authors and ignore the rest of the hoo ha. I had to do the same thing with Ron/Hermione because it's SCARY out there! :D

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with you on the concrit thing - although I have seen some balanced sites - but I imagine that it's a pain in the rear to keep neutral.

Very hard. And done in public, it's not really concrit anymore.

As far as the awards go though, I have to say that while I agree with you on the fact that a lot of people will simply vote for their favorites, I've managed to find several new author's and stories that I'd never seen before and wouldnt' have found were it not for the nomination processes since a lot of them are on personal LJ pages rather than the more common groups that I belong to. I guess I look at it as a big fic rec page, stay with the Dr./Rose authors and ignore the rest of the hoo ha. I had to do the same thing with Ron/Hermione because it's SCARY out there! :D

Oh, I've done the same thing myself! A million years ago when I read fic by the truckload, I used nom lists as places to find fic. So it can be a good place for that, and good for knowing that at least one person liked a fic. But to think that awards equal excellence just isn't the case. It doesn't negate excellence, but it also doesn't prove excellence.

[elirrina.livejournal.com]

My internetly illiteracy, let me show you it. Concrit sounds like concrete. I assume it stands for some sort of criticism?

[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

concrit = constructive criticism

[outforawalk.livejournal.com]

Heh. I came across this post just as the end of War Games aired. "Strange game. The only winning move is not to play." It seems so on the nose.

(I prefer recommendations, with a little blurb about what you liked. But that's probably because criticisms make me jittery.)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

That does seem on the nose. :D

[rosewarren.livejournal.com]

Yes. Yes to all of this. I love reviews - people who drop by to say hi. I also like it when I'm told I have a coding error, or a spelling error, or something along those lines. That's helpful, because I want to fix those types of things.

People complaining because they didn't like they way someone ended a fic? Or the way a sentence was constructed? That's a bit much, considering this is fanfic and no one is making any money off anything.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

And if someone *has* to have those kinds of critiques, I'd much prefer they did it privately.

[nostariel]

This thread at FFR reminded me of this entry, and now I see that I didn't comment when I thought I did. Weird. ANYWAY, big ol' word to all of this. Fic and Fandom are for Fun. WTF, people, stop being asses.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I didn't read through the whole comment thread, but I like how this was put. I've never heard it put like this before, but it's really apt.

http://community.livejournal.com/fanficrants/7993428.html?thread=230642004&format=light#t230642004

Sometimes you just want to bounce the ball around with your friends instead of getting a P.E. class instruction.