Rantypants.

[mrv3000]

I have to bitch about a fandomsecret thing, which I'm not keeping secret.



The original f!s:
http://i27.tinypic.com/mbppq8.jpg

1. Who are these "fans?" You and your online buddies? Is that supposed to comprise all of the show's fans?
   
   
2. I never heard about any field polls about what characters people liked better. Must have been some super secret polls done just so RTD can craft entire shows that make up his livelihood around the results.
   
   
3. What about Martha, Owen and Tosh? Are they off their shows because RTD wanted to punish the fans for liking cheese?
   
   
4. I guess the fact that Ten's final story will involve Donna means that RTD is continuing with the punishment. DAMN HIM FOR RESOLVING DONNA'S STORYLINE! Oh wait. I think that's what we wanted. I'm getting so confused of when I get to curse RTD's name and when he merely exists.
   
   
5. I can't speak to Gwen, since I really don't know anything about that show's overall fan base, but I can speak to Rose. Rose is so unpopular with the fans that as of last Halloween, little girls (and a few big ones) dressed up as her. Rose is so unpopular with the fans that at the DW panel at ComicCon, people were yelling out her name. Yeah, fans hate her.
   
   
6. I know you're upset at Ianto's death, BUT STOP BRINGING ROSE INTO IT, YOU INSANE PEOPLE. Rose didn't cause Ianto's death. Rose didn't even get Donna kicked off the show, nor is Rose responsible for Donna coming back. ROSE DID NOT CAUSE GLOBAL WARMING.
   
   
7. The few responses to this secret actually agree with the secret. O_O I just... Why do I always expect to find logic in fandom, but always am surprised when I don't? I must be mad.

And semi-related, I saw some "St. Gwen" comments in a Torchwood post. To give a little backstory on me, I wouldn't say that Gwen is my favorite Torchwood character. I probably don't have a favorite character on Torchwood, but possibly it's Jack just because of his DW ties. I don't ship anyone on Torchwood and I mainly watch it for the crack.

However, I have watched S1 - S3, and "St. Gwen?" HARDLY. We are talking about the woman who cheated on Rhys, right? Yes, Gwen did awesome things, but so did Jack, Ianto, Owen and Tosh. These are characters who work for a semi-secret alien-catching organization. They're supposed to be a bit more superhero-ish than your average Joe.

Feel free to hate Gwen all you want. No one has to like a character. But when you feel the need to justify that hate with stuff like "St. Gwen" or "Mary Sue," I'm just going to roll my eyes at you. I actually watch this show too, and no amount of repeating those titles will make it be true.

Comments

[morrighangw.livejournal.com]

What? What CRACK are they on? People can just be so immature and petty... *snarls*

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

It's giving RTD's crack a run for the money!

*pets*

[pro-hominum.livejournal.com]

Go look at some cuteness of your wee nephew and it'll all be fine again. :)

Re: *pets*

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

It's not working! D:

[lunachickk.livejournal.com]

I love Rose. I love Donna. I love Ianto best. I'm kinda meh about Gwen but mostly because she's silly and watery-eyed and kinda useless most of the time. But I love her with Rhys (now that she's realized how great he is and committed herself to him.) and she did pretty well for herself in CoE.
I'm not happy with RTD at all and would like to sic my pet pterodactyl on him.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Be sure to squirt BBQ sauce on him! XD

[papilio-luna.livejournal.com]

I am now officially sick and tired of the Big Fannish Conspiracy Theories. RTD has said about a katrillion times that he pays no attention at all to internet fandom, doesn't care about it, doesn't read it, and encourages the people who work for him to not read it. HE HAS NO IDEA WHAT INTERNET FANDOM THINKS OF ANY OF THOSE CHARACTERS. And even if he did know, he wouldn't care one way or another. So, here is a list of things that I am now officially sick and tired of hearing about:

1. RTD wrote CoE in order to "break all his toys" before he left, despite the fact that he's still going to be involved in Torchwood even after leaving Who.
2. RTD killed Ianto because he has a secret heterosexual agenda.
3. He killed Ianto because Gwen is his Mary Sue.
4. He killed Ianto because ROSE ROSE ROSE ROSE ROSE SO THERE ROSE! Or whatever.
5. He is at all in any way concerned about "punishing" anyone for any dumbass reason.

[ivydoor.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over how AWESOME (DT ♥) you icon is.

(But yeah, I second this sentiment.)

[ginamak.livejournal.com]

Just remember: NINE PACKETS OF COFFEE. NINE. That is the sum total of the massive protest unleashed upon the BBC.

The same nine fans can rant and rave and scream all they want; it doesn't make their delusion, you know, REALITY.

Besides, how is it exactly an either/or? I love Rose, and I love Donna. I'm as heartbroken about what happened to Donna as anyone.

Look, here's the thing about Torchwood, at least IMO. The show suffered mightily from inconsistent writing and characterization. Ianto may have been pretty, but he served no real purpose, other than to snark once in a while and look nice while kissing Jack--and their relationship was inexplicable. It just...happened one day, with no buildup, no backstory, nothing. It rang false to me from the start, and I never got over that.

Tosh was poorly utilized, and made into such a milquetoast that she was rendered effectively useless except as a "Basil Expositon" or Q type. The writers seemed at a loss for what to do with her.

Owen was, well, Owen. Probably the most interesting character on the show, though even he suffered from terrible characterization at times, especially in the first season. He was a complete and irredeemable bastard, essentially a rapist, and then we were asked to feel for him when he fell in love with the pilot woman? Why? Their sudden connection also rang completely false.

Gwen was slightly more interesting, but only because she was more developed as a character than the others; she had a life outside of work that we saw, friends and family. That doesn't make her a Mary Sue, it just makes her better written than the ciphers at Torchwood.

The way I see it, RTD took a long look at Torchwood as a series and decided if it had any chance of continuing, it needed a complete overhaul. And that meant purging the show of what didn't work in order to start fresh. I liked Ianto--he was funny and snarky at times and made me laugh--but he didn't serve the drama, and was, unfortunately, expendable.

Wow, that went on for longer than I thought it would.

[papilio-luna.livejournal.com]

I'd like to cosign everything you've said.

Also, I think that people seriously misconstrue the idea of an audience-substitute character--the character who is supposed to be the audience's "in" to the universe of the story. That's not a synonym for "self-insert" or "character with no flaws." It just means that when you're telling a story, especially a story set in a universe quite different from our own, you need to have a character who starts out "on the outside" and who's job it is to ask the questions, have the "normal life" and to be more or less "like us" in that he or she at the beginning has a normal job and a normal boy/girlfriend and normal opinions on what's happening in the story. People get this St. Gwen and St. Rose BS from the acknowledgement by the writers that those two characters were our "audience stand-ins" for these brand new TV shows set in a universe most viewers would not be familiar with. It doesn't mean they were supposed to be perfect or that the writers "favour" them in any way. It just means that they're around to ask Important Questions and to behave in ways that make the audience pause for a moment and think, "Yeah, what would, I do in that situation?"

Martha and Donna also had that role, but to not quite so great an extent as Rose and Gwen because Doctor Who/Torchwood was already rolling along and the audience was much more familiar with the world of the show by the time Martha came along.

Also, word on your last paragraph. Torchwood was a hot mess (and pretty roundly mocked by pretty much everyone). You can kind of see RTD angsting over how little control he had over it (because of his time commitment to Who) and what a mess it was becoming in The Writer's Tale every now and then. He doesn't come right out and say it, but you can read it between the lines.

[a-white-rain.livejournal.com]

Rose causing global warming = I want to make that an interest now.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

*SNORTS*

[goldy-dollar.livejournal.com]

You posted, yay!

The idea of RTD having some sort of secret agenda against his characters just... baffles me. The guy clearly has a pretty high opinion of himself, and that includes the characters he's created. I'm pretty sure he thinks they're all awesome-Mcawesome.

So, no fandom, Ianto was NOT about punishing you.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

You posted, yay!

I "RAWR OMG"-ed about it for a while. XD

The idea of RTD having some sort of secret agenda against his characters just... baffles me. The guy clearly has a pretty high opinion of himself, and that includes the characters he's created. I'm pretty sure he thinks they're all awesome-Mcawesome.

MWAH.

So, no fandom, Ianto was NOT about punishing you.

Really really really really not.

[selenityshiroi.livejournal.com]

I hate all the Rose hate. I can't understand what is so wrong with her, in 'fandom's' eyes.

I love Donna. I love Ianto. I also love Rose.

And as for Gwen...I hated her in the first series-I will readily admit that. But she developed well throughout series 2 and I'm very fond of her now. Even if I'm still of the opinion that she can't carry the show on her own.

So all the Ianto/Donna Vs. Rose/Gwen stuff boggles me. They aren't in competition.

As for RTD...God. I think he's amazing in many ways (Midnight was such an amazing piece of writing and I love DW in so many ways), but his interviews about COE have left me feeling rather annoyed at him. I'm more annoyed at his attitude than at the show. And yet...I can't help but think that this stinks of RTD style deviousness-that he's going to pull a Rose in two years time and go 'Oh...did I say Ianto would NEVER return? Really? Opps. Guess I fibbed a little.'

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

And as for Gwen...I hated her in the first series-I will readily admit that. But she developed well throughout series 2 and I'm very fond of her now. Even if I'm still of the opinion that she can't carry the show on her own.

And to me, that's a perfectly valid opinion.

So all the Ianto/Donna Vs. Rose/Gwen stuff boggles me. They aren't in competition.

HARDLY. There's not some sort of law of "in order to like this character, I must dump on this other character." No, THAT'S FANDOM.

As for RTD...God. I think he's amazing in many ways (Midnight was such an amazing piece of writing and I love DW in so many ways), but his interviews about COE have left me feeling rather annoyed at him. I'm more annoyed at his attitude than at the show. And yet...I can't help but think that this stinks of RTD style deviousness-that he's going to pull a Rose in two years time and go 'Oh...did I say Ianto would NEVER return? Really? Opps. Guess I fibbed a little.'

I have to say I was a wee bit annoyed at his attitude in one interview myself. But then someone pointed out that he was really railing against the hard-core over-the-edge fans, not at all fans. And an unglued fan probably should be smacked back to reality.

[professor_mirror]

Rose didn't cause Ianto's death.

I bet you there is fic where she did. Like, maybe in the Altiverse there is evil!alternate!Ianto!with!goatee! who tried to kill Ten II and Rose terminated him with extreme prejudice.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Oh, betcha there is. I have heard of one fic where Rose apparently is an evil self-centered bitch who keeps trying to rip open the universes (never mind that the dimension cannon itself didn't actually cause the breakdown of realities or the holes in the universes, and let's not even talk about characterization) and Ten II has to kill her. Because of the evil. Just throw in alt!Ianto and your fannish agenda!fic is complete! It'd win so many fic awards!

[elismor.livejournal.com]

ROSE DID NOT CAUSE GLOBAL WARMING.

That's not what I hear.

They are building a shame totem pole for her in Alaska. Right next to Sarah Palin's.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Oooooh! What outfit will she be in?? Can I get a toy of that?

(Rose obviously. I'll take a big frickin pass on Sarah Palin.)

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

Fandom is silly.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Very silly.

[javabreeze.livejournal.com]

The rational fans are the ones that keep quiet and know when to pick their battles. It's always the few loud ones that get the most attention.

That secret irked me because I love Rose and Gwen. I also liked Donna and Ianto but not as much as the latter. RTD doesn't "punish" fans. He doesn't give a fuck about "fandom" opinion. He writes what he wants to write and I love that about him.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

The rational fans are the ones that keep quiet and know when to pick their battles. It's always the few loud ones that get the most attention.

Unfortunately, this is 100% accurate.

That secret irked me because I love Rose and Gwen. I also liked Donna and Ianto but not as much as the latter. RTD doesn't "punish" fans. He doesn't give a fuck about "fandom" opinion. He writes what he wants to write and I love that about him.

Yeah, that's one thing I do love about his writing - he has all these giant story arcs in his mind from the very beginning. They're often cracky as all get-out, but the man plans.

[avoria.livejournal.com]

God, fandom's so weird. I'll never understand the hate towards characters who are supposed the be the audience's way in to an otherwise strange, alien and cold shows (both DW and TW here).

I love(d) all the characters in Torchwood, and probably mostly Jack, but as you said, there are DW connections there. I ship Jack/Gwen yet Ｉbawled like a baby when Ianto died. Why the hell are people connecting Rose to his death (which I completely and utterly did not see coming!)? I mean ... what? That would be like complaining about a plot twist in Firefly because Buffy made a snarky comment at someone.

I mean, honestly *rolls eyes*

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

God, fandom's so weird. I'll never understand the hate towards characters who are supposed the be the audience's way in to an otherwise strange, alien and cold shows (both DW and TW here).

Maybe there's a tendency to think of them as interlopers?

That would be like complaining about a plot twist in Firefly because Buffy made a snarky comment at someone.

EXACTLY.

[selenityshiroi.livejournal.com]

You know...someone needs to write a fic where Badwolf!Rose brings Ianto back from the dead in some sort of timey whimy thing because Badwolf!Rose doesn't want Jack to be lonely. They can even have her make him immortal for neverending Janto sex.

Then watch the rabid Ianto fangirls squirm as they try to hate Rose.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Awwwwwwwwwwwwww!

(Semi-related, I'll never understand why the Doctor and Jack don't have happy fun adventures through time. They're both immortal(ish) and could cure each other's lonely. But nooooooooo. They have to wander around being emo.)

[shinyopals.livejournal.com]

*Pets* Fandom does enjoy getting its knickers in a twist about the silliest things sometimes.

OF COURSE RTD DID IT TO PISS YOU OFF. I BET HE READS YOUR LJ AND PURPOSEFULLY DOES EVERYTHING YOU HATE.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Not just reads, I bet he tracks it! RSS feed, baby!

[bittybye2000.livejournal.com]

I think you're a little confused. This is Fandom; Earth logic is not compatible.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

D:

[gowdie.livejournal.com]

Dude, Gwen is the saint/Mary Sue that is also a total selfish slut/whore. How did you miss that memo? And if you think these things should be mutually exclusive, that's just cause you're doing it wrong.

Yeah, I will never, ever, ever get past the idiocy of the entitled belief that killing a character is somehow meant to punish either the character, or the audience.

Back when Tara was killed on Buffy, fans were hating on Joss Whedon, claiming he was a heartless bastard. His response? That NO ONE cried harder than he did over Tara's death. That he had been forced to walk out of story meetings to take a moment alone a few times when the subject came up.

J.K. Rowling - I'm not sure she ever told us which character it was - but also told the story of approaching a character's death and having to walk away from her desk, momentarily unable to go through with it. It was eventually her husband that talked her back.

I think part of the problem RTD is facing right now is in how he presents himself. He has a very dark sense of humour. There is a quote it the Writer's Tale about Voyage of the Damned where he is discussing how writing ten person scenes is so hard that he can't wait to start killing the poor bastards. I think people are feeling so emotionally bruised/sensitive right now, that they aren't taking his comments with the humourous tone with which they are intended. And forgetting that no matter how seriously you take a character death, the decision was WAY more serious and difficult for the creator.

Meanwhile, did you pay any attention to the wank report re CoE? It was around sixty comments in that someone tried to conjure the name of Rose. Fortunately the wankas didn't go for the bait and it was dropped. But, you know, further evidence for your closer to one theory.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Dude, Gwen is the saint/Mary Sue that is also a total selfish slut/whore. How did you miss that memo? And if you think these things should be mutually exclusive, that's just cause you're doing it wrong.

*sighs*

There is a quote it the Writer's Tale about Voyage of the Damned where he is discussing how writing ten person scenes is so hard that he can't wait to start killing the poor bastards. I think people are feeling so emotionally bruised/sensitive right now, that they aren't taking his comments with the humourous tone with which they are intended. And forgetting that no matter how seriously you take a character death, the decision was WAY more serious and difficult for the creator.

I think that's an excellent point. When I hear that I'm amused because I was thinking the same thing in a multi-person fic (even though I loved all the characters). But if someone just lost a favorite character and heard that, there'd be stinging.

It was around sixty comments in that someone tried to conjure the name of Rose. Fortunately the wankas didn't go for the bait and it was dropped.

FIGURES. At least most people had the good sense to ignore that crap.

[kammgirl.livejournal.com]

Stop being intelligent. Fandom doesn't know what that looks.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Just some simple logic would be nice. Very basic logic, even.

[jesidres.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes, see, as most f!s people would point out, that's just a wankbait secret. They're assuming their beliefs are what the creator is actually doing, rather than, say, WHAT THE CREATOR SAID HE WAS DOING. *headdesk* I've been scrolling past the torchwood wankery on f!s, except for the really funny ones.

I got to wonder though- then who were the faults of Tosh and Owen? Martha?

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes, see, as most f!s people would point out, that's just a wankbait secret. They're assuming their beliefs are what the creator is actually doing, rather than, say, WHAT THE CREATOR SAID HE WAS DOING. *headdesk* I've been scrolling past the torchwood wankery on f!s, except for the really funny ones.

The amount of Torchwood secrets on there lately is nuts. And most of them really don't seem like "secrets" at all. Just bitching.

I got to wonder though- then who were the faults of Tosh and Owen? Martha?

I'm sticking with cheese.

[josephides.livejournal.com]

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Rose caused global warming. HAHAHAHAHAHA.

I haven't read the article. I barely know what you're talking about. But - Rose. Global warming. FUNNY.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

SHE DID! It's scary, man!

[vegmb.livejournal.com]

Why do I always expect to find logic in fandom
Because that is what logical people do. I find it causes problems in many areas of life...like anything dealing with teenagers or the government...or fandom. The problem is that I don't know how to not think logical, so I have yet to devise a way to deal with these things.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

There should be a fandom to logic dictionary.

[surreallis.livejournal.com]

Yes. When I saw that secret my first impulse was to say, "Speak for yourself. THIS FAN LOVES THEM ALL." Or do we not count? Oh right. My bad.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Nope, you don't count. Only people they can see in front of them make up fandom.

[larissa-j.livejournal.com]

Gwen is not exactly my favorite character either and her married life story is not something that thrills me but RTD set it up in the first few episodes that she wasn't supposed to get too involved in Torchwood or let it take over her life. Anyone who didn't get that she was going to be the one to make it out alive, wasn't paying attention. As I said though, I find that part of the Torchwood story dull. Gwen's okay but married life stuff *snore*.

And sorry Ianto fans but I'm more upset over Tosh. Her death was sudden and pointless and I was miffed that RTD had her carrying on after Owen for so long but you don't see me accusing him of crazy theories about how he must hate his IT department or how they never fix his computers so he took it out on fans of Tosh because she was the computer expert!!

Really.

And give over on the Donna vs Rose and Martha vs Rose and Everyone vs Rose. You make yourselves look stupid. RTD doesn't give a flying f*ck who you like. He writes what he wants to write and the BBC signed up CT for S4 only. You see, there's this thing called a contract. I know that the out of work basement dwellers posting to f!s might not be familiar with this but they do exist. Actors and actresses sign them at the beginning of a season. The term of the contract has nothing to do with fandom butthurt and is completely dependent on the number of episodes.

Besides, if RTD and David had stayed on for another season, CT would as well. It's amazing what you learn if you listen to the production staff rather than the voices in your head. As it stands, Donna is coming back.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

but RTD set it up in the first few episodes that she wasn't supposed to get too involved in Torchwood or let it take over her life. Anyone who didn't get that she was going to be the one to make it out alive, wasn't paying attention.

Good point. Owen, Tosh and Ianto all lived for Torchwood. And Torchwood is...fucked up.

how he must hate his IT department or how they never fix his computers so he took it out on fans of Tosh because she was the computer expert!!

*chortles*

"THEY SET MY SCREENSAVER TO MY LITTLE PONY AGAIN! DAMN THEM ALL TO HELL!!"

RTD doesn't give a flying f*ck who you like. He writes what he wants to write and the BBC signed up CT for S4 only.

And S4 had been written before S4 aired. (DUH.) Before S4 started lots of people didn't even like Donna like they do now.

Besides, if RTD and David had stayed on for another season, CT would as well. It's amazing what you learn if you listen to the production staff rather than the voices in your head. As it stands, Donna is coming back.

I could easily have seen that.

[thistwilight.livejournal.com]

What... the hell? Who writes this stuff anyway? Obviously the fandom = that user and his mom.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Obviously the fandom = that user and his mom.

XD I just laughed out loud.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

I seriously do not get why Rose keeps getting brought up in unrelated conversations as the root of all evil. Gwen, either. Gwen's not my favorite, but I don't think she's a Mary Sue or a "saint" either - nor do I believe we're meant to think she is a saint. To the contrary. *eyeroll*

(Catching up after a two-day LJ hiatus! Incoming!)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Yeah. *sighs* It's getting completely annoying to be reading about something and BAM! Someone has to launch into that.